New SpeedLock firing pin for Rem 22-250

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boldasabear

New member
I was intrigued by the information on David Tubb's SpeedLock Systems high performance firing pin so I bought one. Basically, by reducing lock time (the time between the trigger break and primer ignition)you can increase the accuracy of your rifle. They claim that "by the time the firing pin has reached the the primer on most rifles, the bullet has already left the muzzle on a speedLock systems gun." Makes sense to me and for the cost of $65.00 it seems to be a very economical accuracy enhancement,providing one uses it with good shooting habits.

Now, two questions I want to ask:

1) Who has installed a SpeedLock or other performance firing pin in you rifle and how does it perform?

2) My Remington 700 pin is heavily greased which I don't think is a great idea especially if it is cold. I am thinking of using a dry teflon application treatment to the pin. Amazingly, no instructions came with the pin regarding this. What is your opinion as to firing pin lubrication?
 
For firing pin lubrication a little goes a long way. Unless you have a problem with your loads there isn't much exposure of fouling to the firing pin.

Use a lightweight oil (I've been using Rem Oil in the spray can) sparingly. Break-Free CLP is another option. It's what the military uses for cleaning most all their guns, from M-16s to 155mm and 8" howitzers.

Some dry graphite might be an option as well, but I just stick with Rem Oil.

Glenn
 
Lets rotate this question back to the top.

In the past I've asked this question and got answers that I don't completely understnd the whys and explainations for. The answers read like this:

1 - The Remington already has one of the fastest lock times. My thoughts: Yea, but exactly how would even faster hurt accuracy.

2 - For off hand shooters speed would be a benefit but for the bench shooter , "no advantage". My thoughts: This makes absolute sence as far as offhand shooting is concerned. Fast lock time helps a shaky hand. But the negative as related to bench shooting are unclear to me. Again okay so why not on a bench gun?

3 - Speed lock systems are not highly thought of in the benchrest croud. My thoughts: Like the above question, why not?

I'm wanting to know the answers to these questions and many others that I haven't thought of asking yet. So come on fellas, the advertised advantages seem compelling enough so at least some of you must have tried the system out.
 
---1 - The Remington already has one of the fastest lock times. My thoughts: Yea, but exactly how would even faster hurt accuracy.---

An equally valid question, how would even faster HELP accuracy?

---2 - For off hand shooters speed would be a benefit but for the bench shooter , "no advantage". My thoughts: This makes absolute sence as far as offhand shooting is concerned. Fast lock time helps a shaky hand. But the negative as related to bench shooting are unclear to me. Again okay so why not on a bench gun?---

Simple. Vibrations/harmonics.

- DAA
 
DAA - Okay fair enough:

"An equally valid question, how would even faster HELP accuracy?"

Interesting arguement indeed. Lock time is highly promoted as one of the reasons that one action makes a superior bench/acuracy gun than another (Take a springfield vs a Remington 700). Many electronic ignitions have been sold with the claim that they are much faster that a machanical ignition system. And all of these arguements make sence to me. Therefore I would think that an even faster lock time would help with trigger over travel and follow threw along with all of the other little things that happen between trigger pull and ingition that I haven't thought of.

"Again okay so why not on a bench gun?---

Simple. Vibrations/harmonics."

A simple straight forward answer that I can find very little to argue with. But for the fun of it I'll try. I take it that the change in vibrations/harmonics would be caused by the wasted inertial energy added to the bolt system as the firing pin (shoulder) slams into the face of the bolt. I this sounds reasonable. But of you drop the heavier stock firing pin and replace it with one of the light weight models wouldn't the total inertia be roughly the same?

I listened to the origional advice and stuck with the stock Remington setup and been happy with the decission but I still wonder a little bit about this question.
 
How much it will improve somebody's shooting can be anybody's guess.

For the most part, I look at it like those stickers you put on a cell phone that supposedly give you better reception and block RF from being directed to your head. They do absolutely nothing (I work with a bunch of RF engineers for a cell company and they laugh constantly at these things) but simply goes to show that given the right mentally massaging words people will go for anything.

Ok, while a faster lock time may improve some people's downrange results, I find it highly unlikely that it will do much. People that have problems with their downrange groupings are usually looking for any type of quick fix device since nobody likes to admit that their skills are lacking.

Glenn
 
Michael, excellent questions!

BroncoGlenn, my down range skills can always be improved, what about yours?

Here is some information I pulled off the SpeedLock website at www.zediker.com. It addresses some of the issues you brought up.

The flight time of most bullets through the barrel is 1.0-1.5 milliseconds (thousandths of a second) while the lock time of most conventional bolt action rifles varies between 2.6 and 9.0 milliseconds. On average, a SpeedLock Systems alloy firing pin cuts lock time approximately 31 percent. Combined with a radically improved SpeedLock CS Spring (included), lock time is reduced another 8 percent. This is a total reduction in lock time of 39 percent.

The effect is amazing: by the time the firing pin has reached the primer on most rifles, the bullet has already left the muzzle on a SpeedLock Systems gun! Dry fire just once and you'll hear the difference!

The result is simple: a reduction in lock time will cause your rifle to hit closer to where you held the crosshairs when you pulled the trigger. Everyone's rifle is moving when it's fired. The amount of movement may be almost imperceptible, but that's all it takes. If you're shooting at a trophy deer at 300 yards, movement at the muzzle of only 0.058 inches means a missed animal. If you're a competitive silhouette shooter, just 0.022 movement makes the difference between a hit and a miss on a 500-meter ram. When lock time is reduced, the probability of the misses and lost points is reduced. SpeedLock Systems helps you squeeze that last ounce of accuracy from your rifle, and SpeedLock Systems accomplishes this with a minimum of time, effort, and cost (must be installed by a competent gunsmith).

It's been proven that primer ignition is a critical factor in accuracy and consistency. Another benefit of the alloy firing pin is that its lighter weight and more powerful spring results in a higher velocity striker. SpeedLock Systems parts deliver a higher energy impact faster and more efficiently.

Also, another advantage of our lightweight pin is that it ignites the primer with less movement of mass, thereby greatly reducing the vibrations associated with firing pin fall. These vibrations begin to cycle and oscillate the muzzle well before the bullet exits the barrel. A SpeedLock Systems pin reduces the level of this oscillation to the extent that the accuracy of your rifle may actually improve. This effect is easily seen by dry firing from a benchrest using a high powered scope. Watch the reticle movement "before" and "after" and the difference is astounding.

Performance is in the numbers!

Remington 700 short-action

Standard Firing Pin

Firing pin weight 650 grains
Lock time 2.6 milliseconds

SpeedLock Systems Pin
Firing pin weight 285 grains
Lock time 1.6 milliseconds

SpeedLock Systems net effect
365 grain reduction in firing pin weight [58-percent reduction]

Lock time reduced 1.01 milliseconds [39-percent reduction]


OK is it fact or fiction?. I still want to hear from some SpeedLock users.
 
Michael,

---Lock time is highly promoted as one of the reasons that one action makes a superior bench/acuracy gun than another (Take a springfield vs a Remington 700).---

Not really. That may have been the case going back as far as a Springfield being used in BR, I really don't know, but locktime is never even mentioned when comparing the suitability of various actions for bench rest use. This discussion is going off in multiple directions, and I want to be clear that I'm talking about pure precision here - "accuracy". Not the offhand shooting. I think faster locktime likely IS a good thing for offhand shooting. And for that matter, I sure don't think it is a BAD thing for bench shooting. But at the same time, I don't think these speedlock kits will do anything good for the pure accuracy of a Remington 700. The BR crowd has tried them, and rejected it.

Electronic ignition has essentially zero locktime. Again, it hasn't been shown to increase pure accuracy. Although, if we believe that the speedlock might be bad for accuracy, based on vibrations and harmonics, then the electronic should be good - because it eliminates those vibrations. The ad copy for the speedlock tries to claim territory going both ways. Either it hits the primer "harder", or it doesn't". If it does, it increases vibrations. The ad claims to hit hard and vibrate less. Maybe, but I don't see it.

I don't have the answers. But if a speedlock kit would improve the "accuracy" of a 700 action, believe you me, precision 'smiths would be installing them. They obsess over even the most minute accuracy gains. They don't use them, and in fact most advise against them as being potentially harmful to precision.

For offhand shooting, sure, why not. Be interested to hear Jack's take on that.

- DAA
 
For 3 position shooting, where you are supporting the rifle, not a rest, faster lock time can raise your score slightly. However it is not going to be of any noticeable help to an even above average shot. Only very good shooters will be able to notice the difference.

If you can call your shots exactly, faster lock time will get you a little closer to "what you see is what you get." If the rifle is moving away from center when the trigger breaks, the hit will not be quite as far out with the faster lock time.

I shot a titanium firing pin in an Anschutz 1907, 3position rifle. In a 1200 point match, I feel the faster lock time probably saved me one point. One point is nothing to sneer at. Matches are won and lost by one point, however it is not a big difference out of 1200 points.

The difference between slow and fast lock time is a lot like the difference between shooting a 308 and a 243 offhand. Your hit will be closer to what you saw when the trigger broke, with the 243. The reason here is because of the faster muzzle velocity of the 243, but that is a similar feeling to lock time differences. Although a M700 will never show that much difference because the lock time is so fast to start with. If you compared an 03/A3 with a M700 you might see as big a difference as between a 308 and a 243.

I hope my analogy doesn't confuse things.

Jack
 
Originally posted by boldasabear:
[qb]

BroncoGlenn, my down range skills can always be improved, what about yours?
[/qb]
Click to expand...
I never said my skills couldn't be improved. But you are now detracting from the argument by confusing equipment and skills. Adding a speedlock-benchrest-shooter-in-a-box-10000 to a rifle does nothing to improve skills.

I'd rather spend the money for that speedlock-hoopdie-5000 on ammunition and targets that can be used in practice session that actually improve skills--which will directly improve accuracy.

Glenn
 
BroncoGlen, Edit...skills...to accuracy.

I have no problem with shooting lots of ammo, as nothing can replace good shooting skills which leads to accuracy. (plus it's fun!)

Jack, I liked your anology.

I am still not convinced it's not a good thing. We seem obsessed with squeezing the most out of handloads and our equipment but when it comes to squeezing just a bit more out it is a waste of money...like adding curb feelers to a lifted pickup truck.

BroncoGlenn, nice grouping on the .30-06. Now how would that same group look from a pair of shooting sticks? OK, were not quite as rock steady as we were at the range. See where I am coming from? Add a brisk wind, buck fever and a spooky buck. Has lock time come into play yet?
 
Boldasabear: I see no reason why to change skills to accuracy. Skills are the foundation upon which accuracy is built.

Anyway, thanks for the kudos re: the .30-06 group. Could a faster lock time improve the groupings? Possibly. I'm sure if the wind didn't keep fluctuating in speed that would have been a greater benefit. I could also do things like bed the action and float the barrel and other such things to the rifle to improve accuracy. The only thing I have done to improve upon the rifle is a trigger job on the factory trigger.

Would the faster lock time improve accuracy? It's entirely possible. But there are so many other factors that lock time is just a drop in the bucket. I can't see the return on investment being nearly as much as a high quality barrel or quality scope. I see the speedlock as trim icing on the cake. Now then, having said that, it may be a more necessary item on rifles that do have relatively slow lock times.

Something I am wondering about: If the firing pin strikes with a much greater force than a standard firing pin, wouldn't that send additional vibrations throughout the rifle?

Glenn
 
Glenn,

Your quote "Something I am wondering about: If the firing pin strikes with a much greater force than a standard firing pin, wouldn't that send additional vibrations throughout the rifle? "

From their literature "Also, another advantage of our lightweight pin is that it ignites the primer with less movement of mass, thereby greatly reducing the vibrations associated with firing pin fall."

I know the stock firing pin is significantly heavier than the SpeedLock pin.
 
Originally posted by boldasabear:
[qb]Glenn,

From their literature "Also, another advantage of our lightweight pin is that it ignites the primer with less movement of mass, thereby greatly reducing the vibrations associated with firing pin fall."

I know the stock firing pin is significantly heavier than the SpeedLock pin.[/qb]
Click to expand...
Their statement would be true if all things were equal. Just because something is smaller doesn't mean it can't exert more force than something that is larger. All you got to do is crank up the speed of the smaller object and it can hit harder. Since the speedlock setup is claimed to hit harder than a stock setup, I call BS on their claim that you quoted.

Glenn
 
BroncoGlen,

Sit tight, I posed your question to David Tubbs who developed the SpeedLock Firing Pins...check out his website if you don't know who he is at... http://www.zediker.com/tubb/tubbmain.html He is off at Camp Perry shooting in some matches but maybe we can get the answer from him when he comes back. Might be a week or so from what I was told.
 
I checked out the web page you mentioned and while it appears the quality of the components is very high here's a statement that I noticed:

SpeedLock reduces the lock time substantially: on a Model 70, for instance, the bullet has left the bore on a SpeedLock equipped rifle before the primer has ignited on a standard gun! Net effect is pretty simple: the bullet WILL hit closer to where the sight was when it fired. Can't do better than that. I've also seen them increase accuracy, and I think it has to do with lower vibration.
Click to expand...
Ok, I don't know how a factory Model 700 compares to the Model 70, but I'll throw him a bone and accept that the first sentence is true. However, he then goes on to state, "I've also seen them increase accuracy, and I think it has to do with lower vibration." This isn't a claim across the board that accuracy will improve as a result of the product. Instead it is offered in "No Guarantees" fashion. But his statement, "Net effect is pretty simple: the bullet WILL hit closer to where the sight was when it fired," implies that there is going to be an improvement in accuracy. So I see the statements as self-contradictory.

As to the vibration concerns he states, "I think it has to do with lower vibration." Again, no guarantees offered. Nothing definite. The words "I think" are presented as a theory, but nothing concrete is established. There are no published measurements of vibrations. There are no published measurements or claims against any POI shift from the force of a harder hit ocuring against the primer.

There are other claims made on the web page that uses the Model 700 spring as an example:
The factory spring is rated at 24 lbs. when it is first installed and with a 1-1/2 inch loss in free length it is now about a 15-16 lb. spring. Also note that the factory spring will continue to degrade throughout its life if it was only installed, even if it is never used.
Click to expand...
As I recall, when springs fade, they essentially fade in an inverse logarithmic fashion. Meaning, they fade the most when first used, but then slow down their fade and then fade at a very slow rate; hence the phrase "settling the springs." So regardless if the factory spring is operating at 25% less strength than when it was new, as long as the correct spring was chosen during design and construction. In other words, when the product was assembled, if it needs 10 pounds of force, putting in a 10-pound spring would present problems later on. If a 20-pound spring was installed than it would have no problem provided the spring fade model for that spring was correctly evaluated.

So is Mr. Tubb's product simply snake oil? Not necessarily. The product sounds like a quality component. Despite that nowadays ISO 9002 claims mean next to nothing since most any company who wants a 9002 certification can get one. If someone was in the position where they needed to rebuild a bolt it may be worth spending the extra money for a higher quality component. But for somebody who has a perfectly good working bolt I'd recommend a little bit of graphite lube to keep the friction to a minimum. By reducing the friction the speed can be increased with the same amount of force being applied. Increasing the speed decreases your lock time. If you are looking for a product that will increase your accuracy, you may want to spend money elsewhere such as floating, bedding, trigger, etc. that will give more improvement for the money.

Glenn
 
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