New to AR's.......Yes or No??

Originally Posted By: VarminterrorI'm very confused that someone is suggesting that the 223rem isn't suitable for 300yrd+ coyotes, but is fixing the 204 Ruger into that qualification, simply because it has the same TRAJECTORY as the 22-250... [beeep]?

Little bullets are still little bullets. 39grn 204R's never hit as hard as a 50grn 223rem.

Let alone the fact that the range advantage of the 22-250 over the 223rem is largely over rated in my experience anyway. If you can hold-over 5ft at 600yrds, you can hold over 7ft, and the energy and momentum difference really doesn't make much difference in killing potency. I started on a 22-250, got tired of burning extra powder to be able to say I was running 150fps faster...

Do your research a 223
55gr vmax at 500 yrds has 313 ftlbs of energy and a 204 40 gr vmax has 405 ftlbs of energy at 500 yrds........
 
Originally Posted By: SlickerThanSnotQuote:he was talking about 22-250 and the 204 is on the same playing field.

not in the fields where i play.

No not the airsoft fields with plastic guns.
 
Originally Posted By: VarminterrorI'm very confused that someone is suggesting that the 223rem isn't suitable for 300yrd+ coyotes, but is fixing the 204 Ruger into that qualification, simply because it has the same TRAJECTORY as the 22-250... [beeep]?

Little bullets are still little bullets. 39grn 204R's never hit as hard as a 50grn 223rem.

Let alone the fact that the range advantage of the 22-250 over the 223rem is largely over rated in my experience anyway. If you can hold-over 5ft at 600yrds, you can hold over 7ft, and the energy and momentum difference really doesn't make much difference in killing potency. I started on a 22-250, got tired of burning extra powder to be able to say I was running 150fps faster...

And a 22-250 55 grain Vmax at 500 yards has 433 foot pounds of energy not much more than the 204
 
Originally Posted By: bryan hDo your research a 223
55gr vmax at 500 yrds has 313 ftlbs of energy and a 204 40 gr vmax has 405 ftlbs of energy at 500 yrds........

No research needed. Here's data from my own personal rigs, both 22":

204 Ruger 500yrds 39grn SBK over 28.0grn Varget
Velocity 2010fps
Energy 350ft.lbs.
Momentum 11.2
TKO Factor 2.3
Hornady HITS 105
Thornily Stopping Power 14.5
Hatcher Relative Stopping Power 4.0

223 Rem 500yrds 50grn V-max over 27.6grn of H4895
Velocity 1620fps
Energy 291ft.lbs.
Momentum 11.6
TKO Factor 2.6
Hornady HITS 115
Thornily Stopping Power 15.7
Hatcher Relative Stopping Power 5.0

So the energy on the 223rem - which I've used to kill a few handfuls of coyotes past 300yrds over the years - is within 15%, and the relative "punch" for all metrics is equal or slightly superior to that of the 204 Ruger. I have no intention of saying that one is actually better than the other, but alternatively, I offer this as support for my reasoning that your statement that the 204 is a 300yrd+ viable round, while the 223rem is not, is just foolish.

If the 204 is enough, the 223rem is enough.
 
Originally Posted By: bryan hDo your research a 223
55gr vmax at 500 yrds has 313 ftlbs of energy and a 204 40 gr vmax has 405 ftlbs of energy at 500 yrds........

At best, this is cherry picking data. You can find premium or "Super performance" loads that show that type of disparity to tip in either cartridge's favor.

Sure, I'll concede that Hornady's published data on their page shows 3900fps from a 26" barrel (4" longer than my coyote rig) with the Super Performance V-max getting 404ft.lbs. at 500yrds, and their 223rem Super Performance 55grn GMX delivers a paltry 302ft.lbs. from a 24" barrel, but on the other hand, their 53grn Vmax Super Performance 223rem shows 431ft.lbs. at 500yrds - besting the 204 Ruger for that load... The 204 Ruger Super Perf 32grn V-max only shows 256ft.lbs. at 500yrds...

Here's data from my own personal rigs, both 22":

204 Ruger 500yrds 39grn SBK over 28.0grn Varget
Velocity 2010fps
Energy 350ft.lbs.
Momentum 11.2
TKO Factor 2.3
Hornady HITS 105
Thornily Stopping Power 14.5
Hatcher Relative Stopping Power 4.0

223 Rem 500yrds 50grn V-max over 27.6grn of H4895
Velocity 1620fps
Energy 291ft.lbs.
Momentum 11.6
TKO Factor 2.6
Hornady HITS 115
Thornily Stopping Power 15.7
Hatcher Relative Stopping Power 5.0

So the energy on the 223rem - which I've used to kill a few handfuls of coyotes between 300-500yrds over the years - is within 15%, and the relative "punch" for all metrics is equal or slightly superior to that of the 204 Ruger. I have no intention of saying that one is actually better than the other, but alternatively, I offer this as support for my reasoning that your statement that the 204 is a 300yrd+ viable round, while the 223rem is not, is just foolish.

If the 204 is enough, the 223rem is enough.
 
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The figures I gave you should have been in the favor of the 223 because your quote was little bullets do not hit as hard as heavy bullets. Thats just crazy .
 
Originally Posted By: bryan hAnd a 22-250 55 grain Vmax at 500 yards has 433 foot pounds of energy not much more than the 204

Again, cherry picking at best...

So... You said "do your research"... Here ya go...

Here's a straight across comparison - same product line, same bullet, same powder, same manufacturer:

204 Ruger Super Performance V-max 40grn = 404ft.lbs. at 500yrds
223rem Super Performance V-max 50grn = 431ft.lbs. at 500yrds
22-250 Super Performance V-max 50grn = 445ft.lbs. at 500yrds.

204 Ruger Super Performance NTX 32grn = 136ft.lbs. at 500yrds
223rem Super Performance NTX 35grn = 170ft.lbs. at 500yrds
22-250 Super Performance NTX 35grn = 205ft.lbs. at 500yrds

Keeping in mind that the 204 is using a 26" barrel to burn all that powder through a small bore, and the 223 and 22-250 are running 24" tubes. Should be good to stack another 50fps on top of those numbers if all 3 were in the same 26" barrel.

Winchester Ballistic Silvertips
204 Ruger 32grn = 222ft.lbs at 500yrds
223rem 50grn = 289ft.lbs. at 500yrds
22-250 50grn = 384ft.lbs. at 500yrds

Nosler Varmaggedon
204 Ruger 32grn = 210ft.lbs. at 500yrds
223rem 55grn = 277ft.lbs. at 500yrds
22-250 55grn = 392ft.lbs. at 500yrds

Remington Accu-tip Varmint
204 Ruger 32grn = 245ft.lbs. at 500
223rem 55grn = 312ft.lbs. at 500
22-250 50grn = 392ft.lbs. at 500

Federal Premium V-shocks (Nos BT's)
204 Ruger 40grn = 277ft.lbs. @ 500
223 Rem 55grn = 333ft.lbs. @ 500
22-250 55grn = 459ft.lbs. @ 500

So... That's Hornady, Winchester, Nosler, Federal, and Remington, same brand, product lines, powders, and bullets... Sure seems like there's a distinct trend at 500yrds... There isn't a single product line where the 204 beats the 223rem, nor a single line in which it's the ballistic equivalent to the 22-250...

Try again?

Both (or rather all 3) are great coyote killers, but there's just no data nor real world experience that I have seen that holds your two statements - 1) that the 204 Ruger is sufficient for 300yrds+ while the 223rem is not, and 2) the 204 Ruger is the ballistic equivalent of the 22-250 - to be true.

But yes, having considerably less velocity, and less energy behind it, a bigger bullet hits harder. Even in my own load data, my 223rem load has less energy, but hits harder than my 204 loads.
 
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Originally Posted By: VarminterrorOriginally Posted By: bryan hAnd a 22-250 55 grain Vmax at 500 yards has 433 foot pounds of energy not much more than the 204

Again, cherry picking at best...

So... You said "do your research"... Here ya go...

Here's a straight across comparison - same product line, same bullet, same powder, same manufacturer:

204 Ruger Super Performance V-max 40grn = 404ft.lbs. at 500yrds
223rem Super Performance V-max 50grn = 431ft.lbs. at 500yrds
22-250 Super Performance V-max 50grn = 445ft.lbs. at 500yrds.

204 Ruger Super Performance NTX 32grn = 136ft.lbs. at 500yrds
223rem Super Performance NTX 35grn = 170ft.lbs. at 500yrds
22-250 Super Performance NTX 35grn = 205ft.lbs. at 500yrds

Keeping in mind that the 204 is using a 26" barrel to burn all that powder through a small bore, and the 223 and 22-250 are running 24" tubes. Should be good to stack another 50fps on top of those numbers if all 3 were in the same 26" barrel.

Winchester Ballistic Silvertips
204 Ruger 32grn = 222ft.lbs at 500yrds
223rem 50grn = 289ft.lbs. at 500yrds
22-250 50grn = 384ft.lbs. at 500yrds

Nosler Varmaggedon
204 Ruger 32grn = 210ft.lbs. at 500yrds
223rem 55grn = 277ft.lbs. at 500yrds
22-250 55grn = 392ft.lbs. at 500yrds

Remington Accu-tip Varmint
204 Ruger 32grn = 245ft.lbs. at 500
223rem 55grn = 312ft.lbs. at 500
22-250 50grn = 392ft.lbs. at 500

Federal Premium V-shocks (Nos BT's)
204 Ruger 40grn = 277ft.lbs. @ 500
223 Rem 55grn = 333ft.lbs. @ 500
22-250 55grn = 459ft.lbs. @ 500

So... That's Hornady, Winchester, Nosler, Federal, and Remington, same brand, product lines, powders, and bullets... Sure seems like there's a distinct trend at 500yrds... There isn't a single product line where the 204 beats the 223rem, nor a single line in which it's the ballistic equivalent to the 22-250...

Try again?

Look at Hornady standard vmax you will see because the superformace in 204 doesn't deviate from the standard were 223 they were able to speed it up so TRY AGAIN.....
 
The 204 standard ammo had the same ballistic as superformance so Hornady just started calling it superformance in 2015 if you need proof I still have a ton of standard that I can take a picture of.
 
Widow maker 223 said:
Both Will kill just fine at 300+yds with good shot placement. Most people cant shoot that well that far anyhow in field conditions. [/quote

yes you are right I was just proving a point.
Click to expand...
 
If you decide to buy I'd highly recommend Daniel Defense or Ambush Firearms which is part of DD. Do the research. You get what you pay for and this was my choice for a .223 / 5.56 AR15.
 
This is another prime example of why I don't post nor answer people very often on this forum or 24hr campfire. My question was a very simple one (I thought)! ARs or not.... turns into, my balls at bigger then yours! Thanks for the help!
 
Savage
Ah dont worry about these guys,make sure you have fun picking out your new rifle,I garentee when you get your first double or triple because you can stay on the scope,instead of working a bolt, you will be loving your new AR... And make sure you post a pick or two when you get it!!! Good luck!!!
 
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Sorry Sir if it turned into a debate I was just trying to give you another option to the 22-250 that you asked about and will perform very well but best of luck in your choice what ever it maybe you will enjoy it.
 
Originally Posted By: savagesupersniperBeen a bolt action guy my whole life! Maine hunter, who loves hunting coyotes along with all the other Maine game. I have a $1000 dollars to spend, what is the way I should lean......Build one, buy one, and caliber????? Or add to my bolt collection???? Would appreciate input greatly!
I would forget any AR15 build and do a 6x6.8 on a Savage action, 22" bbl and it will be easy as making hot water. Get your barrel from BHW or ask GL or Ritch here. Dies can be had at PTG or Redding bushing dies, its based off the 6.8 spc brass.
I have 2 of them, 1 on an AR15 frame and the other on a Savage action, my go to is the bolt build.
Now I just muddled your thinking up eh.
 
Originally Posted By: 5spdOriginally Posted By: savagesupersniperBeen a bolt action guy my whole life! Maine hunter, who loves hunting coyotes along with all the other Maine game. I have a $1000 dollars to spend, what is the way I should lean......Build one, buy one, and caliber????? Or add to my bolt collection???? Would appreciate input greatly!
I would forget any AR15 build and do a 6x6.8 on a Savage action, 22" bbl and it will be easy as making hot water. Get your barrel from BHW or ask GL or Ritch here. Dies can be had at PTG or Redding bushing dies, its based off the 6.8 spc brass.
I have 2 of them, 1 on an AR15 frame and the other on a Savage action, my go to is the bolt build.
Now I just muddled your thinking up eh.

I can understand going that route for an AR15 setup. If going with a bolt rifle, and wanting a 22 cal or 6mm, it is pretty hard to beat a regular 22-250 or 243.
 
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