Night vision info for everyone!

Iownthenight,
Very excellent info you have there.
I use to have a Gen.II viewing scope made by Startron(USA), it worked ok, but not like the newest one's that are out there now.

Is Startron still making the NV optics?
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Coyote Control
 
No, they are not. They made units for law enforcement, etc back in the mid 1980's

They are nicely constructed scopes made for observation. I am not sure if they ever made any weapons scopes, but I don't think they did.
 
Iownthenight i have a couple of questions for you.
How good do these scopes hold their zero with cal up to 308 Win and do they use the weaver base system? The other question is where would be the best place to purchase one of the scopes you listed in the previous post? The Gen 3
1) Raptor 4x (or 6x if you prefer)$6.5K
2) USNV-740 $3.6K
3) USNV-443 $2.6K
4) USNV-441 $2.4K
5) PVS-14 or USNV-14 (with appropriate setup)
6) Gen III PVS-14 $depends, but starts around $2.5K used
6) All the rest (Aries 7900, 7800, etc.)
 
Good questions!

Here is what my experience has been. I have also updated the list with a scope called the Nighthawk, which is the exact same scope as the Raptor, but with a fine single target dot instead of a duplex or mil-dot reticle.

"Iownthenight i have a couple of questions for you.
How good do these scopes hold their zero with cal up to 308 Win and do they use the weaver base system? ***It depends. The military scopes return to zero perfectly. Most use the ARMS mount system, or the milspec railgrabber mount, both are equally great and return to zero perfectly. They are quick detach types of mounts. The commercial scopes like the 740, 443, 440, etc. have commercial style mounts that are typically machined from much softer aluminum, with less robust locking mechanisms, etc. I can not comment honestly on these, as I have seen some that held zero fine, and some that wouldn't hold zero very well, no matter how carefully they were mounted. Also, you need to think about the repeatability of the actual scope, not just the mount. The mil scopes are designed for robust repeatability, and it shows in their reticle and elevation and azimuth adjustments. The commercial style scopes are not as well designed, in my opinion.****

The other question is where would be the best place to purchase one of the scopes you listed in the previous post? ***** Send me your email and I will give you the name of the best person in the NV industry to talk to. I don't want to post this contact info, as I do not want to offend any of the NV retailers out there, who are all trying to make a living.***

A note on the Nighthawk scope below:
This is the same scope as the Raptor (which is assembled by Excalibur and uses ITT tubes and a duplex reticle (4x) or Mildot reticle (6x) and has finger-ajustable elevation and windage knobs)
The Nighthawk is assembled by Nightline, and uses Litton/NG tubes and a single extremely fine target dot reticle and elevation/windage controls that are very similar to the PVS-4 (cartride rim adjustable so that it cannot accidentally be knocked out of zero, etc).

I have used both scopes, and all three reticles. In my opinion, the single fine dot is heads and shoulders better than the duplex or the mildot. It is much "less busy" than the others, and does not obscure any of your target at all. It is adjustable for brightness, so you can make it extremely dim or bright as you wish. Dimmer is better for shooting, trust me! The dot is so fine that if basically covers the EYE of a rabbit at 250 yards! It is the best reticle I have used...ever. Litton tube is very nice, has a much more "green" image than the ITT tube does (more light yellow), which is neither here not there, just a different shade of green. I have no personal preference here, both shades of green work equally well. I prefer the windage/elevation adjustments of the Nighthawk as well, as once I have zeroed the scope I do not change the windage/elevation settings. On the Raptor, you can just reach up and turn the knob...accidentally or inadvertantly...and your scope will not be zeroed any longer. I find at night if you can limit the change of error, it sure pays off. I don't like taking a chance on changing my zero by accident in the dark! Both scopes are identical other than that.

Hope this helps!

The Gen 3 list of dedicated weapons scopes:
1) Nightline Nighthawk 4x (or 6x if you prefer)(same exact scope as the Raptor, but MUCH better reticle, IMHO)$5.6K - special run only a couple left, then price is back up to $6.5k (uses Litton/Northrop-Grumman's tubes)
2) Excalibur Raptor 4x (or 6x if you prefer)$6.5K (uses ITT's tubes)
3) USNV-740 $3.6K
4) USNV-443 $2.6K
5) USNV-441 $2.4K
6) PVS-14 or USNV-14 $3.5K (with appropriate setup)
7) Gen III PVS-4 $depends, but starts around $2.5K used
8) All the rest (Aries 7900, 7800, etc.)"
 
This thread has already got me hooked! I have never used any night vision device but I hope to soon.
Is it possible to get a setup for under $500 that will mount on a standard rifle and allow me to kill an animal out to around 100 yards. I am not really a target shooter so I'm not worried about tight groups, I would like to be able to see well enough to identify and shoot an animal out to 100 yards. The cheaper the better (makes for a happier wife) so if it can be done for cheaper, please advise. If anyone can point me at a few scopes, I would really appreciate it. I have seen some ATN 1st generation scopes for around $200 on eBay and started wondering if they would work or not.
Thanks,

Harley
 
I would like to know if the USNV-441 Gen 3 would be a good scope for night shooting and what kind of target image you will get under different light conditions. I have a heavy barrel short action LH 700 Rem in 223 with weaver bases that i will be mounting this scope on . Will the scope mount on this rifle with the two piece weaver bases that are on the rifle? Is there a IR ILUM. that will mount on this scope for very dark moonless nights? I will be useing this setup for night hunting. One more question . What is the best time and the best way to sight in this setup and what distant should it be sighted? I hope someone can answer this questions.
Thanks
 
Ok, I hope the answers below help the last two questions.

As far as the Gen 1 ATN scopes go, you will have to have supplemental IR light in order to see anything outside on even as semi dark night. My advice is to save your money and buy a Gen II scope instead. While you will still need some IR light on very dark nights, the Gen II will offer you a non-distorted image and you will actually be able to shoot varmints with it. The Gen I scopes are more of a toy than a real tool, ufortunately. With an IR illuminator, you can plan on shooting out to about 50 yards accurately. With the Gen II you can shoot out to 100-150 with ease. Really what you are buying when you spend the extra money moving from Gen I to Gen II, then on to Gen III is the ability of the device to resolve images in extremely low light conditions. That is why on a cloudy, no-moon night, only a Gen III is going to let you see anything. Even the Gen II is not going to perform very well, and you will have trouble seeing 50 yards. And the Gen I will not work at all (without IR). But if your budget won't support the purchase of a Gen III device, then you will need to spend your money on a good IR Illuminator. A handheld spotlight with an IR filter would be your best investment. Keep in mind that you will not be able to see the IR beam except thru the NV device! So if your spotter does not have a NV monocular it will be very hard for him to run the light for you while you look thru your scope (he won't be able to see where the beam is pointing!).

Moving on the the D-441 or 443, it will mount on any weaver style rail (like the one on the AR-15 flattop) If you are using a two-piece base, you will need to make sure the the recoil bar on the bottom of the NV scope fits in your base properly, and that the front of the mount fits properly on the other base. A full length one-piece base is ideal of course (like the Badger Ordinance one, etc) Also, Brownells sells weaver blanks that you can buy in different lengths. You could probably have one of these blanks machined to fit your receiver, if there is not a commercial version avaialable.

You should be able to shoot out to 200 yards easily on a dark night, farther if there is some moonlight, starlight, city glow, etc.

If you are interested in buying a 441 or 443, etc., let me know and I can give you the email address of the guy who has the lowest price, best warranty, etc.

Thanks!
IOTN
 
As far as the image quality, that depends on the available moonligh, starlight, city glow, etc.
On a very dark night, you will probably still want some supplemental IR. But with a partial moon, some stars, etc. you will be able to see several hundred yards easily without any IR needed.

All of the NV weapons scopes come with a daylight cover. This is exactly what it says it is...a cover that needs to be kept on the objective lens during the daytime.

These covers usually have a pinhole drilled in the center of them, or some sort of very dark filter. This limits the amount of light that the unit is exposed to when you use it in the daytime. In general, you should only use it as much as you have to in the daytime, as it is meant for nighttime use.

You can sight the scope in just like you would a traditional daytime scope. Leave the daylight cover on, turn on the unit, adjust the windage and elevation to match point of impact, etc.

I would sight it in for the distance that you think you will be doing most of your shooting at. In my case, the majority of shooting I do seems to be about 100-150 yards at night. I have shot out to 400 yards before, but that is the exception,not the rule! My weapon is sighted in for 100 yards.

I hope this helps!
IOTN
 
Thanks for clearing that up for me. SOunds like I need to save a few more pennies. Okay, if you were to put an IR lense on a light force 170, would it be invisible to the naked eye but still light up there eyes?

Thanks

Harley
 
Harley, that would light their eyes up WAY on out there with any decent Gen 2 or 3 NV equipment. I've got a Lightforce 140 with IR filter, and it will light a rabbit's eyes up at 200 yards or more. It is completely invisible to the eye. It works best with a spotter to run the light, hunting solo I much prefer a small infrared laser illuminator.
 
Yes, I can assure you that any IR light will perform MUCH better than a regular spotlight, spotlight with red lens, etc.

If you have never seen eyes light up when hit with and IR light source, you are really missing a treat!

I have an IR laser illuminator that has a focusing beam, and it will light up the eyes of a rabbit at over 500 yards, easy! You can focus the beam to either a dot or a spotlight (the dot can be seen for miles...literally!)

thanks
IOTN
 
Thanks for the info guys. So can I use a lightforce 170 with IR lense alone or do I have to have a night vision scope before I will see their eyes?
 
IR light is invisible to the human and animal eye. So there will be no light visible, unless you are looking thru a NV device, where it will look like the brightest spotlight you have ever seen. That is the beauty of IR light, it cannot be seen by the varmint, and they typically carry on just as if you are not there.

Actually, there was a study done on the eyesight capability of the coyote. The study concluded that a coyote sees about as well as a human does at night...which is pretty poor! Instead, it relies on its sense of smell and hearing.
 
IR light is invisible to the human and animal eye. So there will be no light visible, unless you are looking thru a NV device, where it will look like the brightest spotlight you have ever seen. That is the beauty of IR light, it cannot be seen by the varmint, and they typically carry on just as if you are not there.

Actually, there was a study done on the eyesight capability of the coyote. The study concluded that a coyote sees about as well as a human does at night...which is pretty poor! Instead, it relies on its sense of smell and hearing.

So adding an IR filter to your incandescent spotlight won't help you at all if you are not looking thru a NV device.

Hope this helps!
IOTN
 
Wow!! Talk about a lot of good information.

Does anyone with NVG's and a LightForce light want to try out some IR filters on their LightForce light?? Let me know and I'll work something out with you so I can get some feedback on them. The IR filters are an actual LightForce product.
 
Already have, Rory, I bought an IR spotlight on eBay for $49 about a year ago, and when I opened the box it was a Lightforce 140 with IR filter! Stole it, I know. For viewing it is one of the best IR sources I have, with the adjustable beam on the Lightforce it really casts a long range IR beam. I would say I can see deer at 500 yds with it, especially using the 3X magnifier lens on my USNV-14. I had to put a little electrical tape around the back of it to completely seal off any stray visible light. From the front it is totally invisible- I can feel the IR from it on my face if I shine it towards myself, but the lens appears dark.For hunting and where it's legal, one of the IR laser illuminators is hard to beat- very portable, mounts right on the rifle or the NV scope, about 2/3 the size of a mini-mag.
 
Originally Posted By: The DukeThis is some good reading!!!

If you like history. Duke....did you notice that this thread is around 8 yrs old ?

 
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