Ohio cop arresting concealed carry permit holder...

Originally Posted By: jumprightinit

So showing a badge ID just verifies your exemption. I know it doesn't keep you from getting a speeding ticket
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That may be true where you are, I'd have to take your word for it.

But I guess I would have to ask the former and active LEO's here, how many of them give tickets to other LEO's or do they give a "professional courtesy"?

 
I'm not LE, but I'm pretty sure that besides the abusive language and behavior that there were major procedural breaches here. I'm forwarding this to a sergeant buddy of mine to get his analysis.

I've done lots of ride-alongs with him and never seen or heard of not securing all occupants of a vehicle prior to commencing an investigation. The one officer had no business being that close to the driver without securing him during his search. They didn't even address the driver's presence for several minutes. Had he meant harm, both of those LEO's could have been injured or worse. A poor stop all the way around, IMHO.
 
Quote:The union will step in and back the officer. He'll be back on the job in no time. Heck, what are unions for
I think that if you were privileged to see what is involved in an internal review of a complaint against an officer, you would have a little different observation...

As a Sergeant, I was rotated through the Internal Review Board, as were all the others, and while many of the complaints and review results don't get published to the general public for legal reasons that would be detrimental to pending court cases, you would be surprised at the number of initiations that are generated by fellow officers...Lawyers love to use that type of information in an attempt to discredit a police witness and support their cases...

We do tend to "police" ourselves, and the end results are usually much more costly to the individual that would ever be levied in an open court of law, for minor indiscretions.. If an officer gets fined a week without pay and knocked down for a future promotion, that's more expensive out of his pocket that a court fine, as well as internally embarrassing...

While there are "professional courtesies" extended, there are also various punishments effected that don't get to a courtroom...
Case in point, we had two Memphis TN Detectives in town, trying to find a fugitive...While there, they decided to experience a large degree of our nightlife and try to meet some of the University Coeds on a social basis...It's illegal to be drinking in a bar while armed, LEO or not (we had received a couple of calls), and they had developed the impression that our speed limits didn't apply to them...

They wound up being relieved of their badges, weapons, and ID cards, with the instructions that they would be returned when their Chief of Police called, requesting that they be sent home...Obviously, their chief was not too happy with their deportment while visiting another jurisdiction...I don't know what happened when they arrived back in Memphis, but I'm betting it wasn't pretty...In most departments, they would have lost the rank of Detective and possibly been assigned to foot patrol in a really crappy part of town...

As far as presenting a badge or similar ID when stopped by a LEO, unless you are either an active or retired LEO, you are better off to present nothing, until asked, lest an overzealous officer try to make a case that your were actively impersonating an officer...

I had a young man one time that was stopped for a minor violation and as he was digging out his driver's license, on the other side of the wallet's interior was this shiny gold badge...When I requested to see it, it was inscribed as "Assistant Prosecuting Attorney, Jackson County Missouri" and upon questioning, he admitted that it has belonged to his deceased uncle...He was given a choice,,surrender it for return to the Prosecutor's office in Kansas City, or be charged with impersonating...
 
Originally Posted By: jumprightinitI'm sure that different States Statutes vary but here in WA when you retire as a LEO your retirement ID exempts you from the CC law for the rest of your life. So showing a badge ID just verifies your exemption. I know it doesn't keep you from getting a speeding ticket
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Retired and active LEO's have national concealed carry privileges under the "LEOSA" that Dubya got passed after 911.
Some states issue a LEOSA card, but some do not. For the states that do not, the retired ID is the only thing a retired officer has to show his CC status.
 
Originally Posted By: OldTurtle


While there are "professional courtesies" extended, there are also various punishments effected that don't get to a courtroom...
Case in point, we had two Memphis TN Detectives in town, trying to find a fugitive...While there, they decided to experience a large degree of our nightlife and try to meet some of the University Coeds on a social basis...It's illegal to be drinking in a bar while armed, LEO or not (we had received a couple of calls), and they had developed the impression that our speed limits didn't apply to them...

They wound up being relieved of their badges, weapons, and ID cards, with the instructions that they would be returned when their Chief of Police called, requesting that they be sent home...Obviously, their chief was not too happy with their deportment while visiting another jurisdiction...I don't know what happened when they arrived back in Memphis, but I'm betting it wasn't pretty...In most departments, they would have lost the rank of Detective and possibly been assigned to foot patrol in a really crappy part of town...



I suppose that is something.

However I would bet if I was drinking in a bar,concealed carrying my firearm, then was caught speeding while under the influence, the LEO's would take my stuff and hold it until my boss called them to get it back. Then I would only only be subject to my boss's judgement and work assignments.

Yea, that'll happen.
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Somehow, I believe my outcome would be a whole lot different, and my punishment much more severe, not to mention court fines, penalties, and maybe a criminal record that would follow me for the rest of my life. Most likely the loss of my CCW and if the loss of my operators license, I would also loose my job.

Yep, the punishments look to be almost equal IMO.
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Although the actions of the Officer are way less than reasonable, I think that there are legitimate questions to be asked about the driver. I have been in 100's of similar situations and this one is just screaming drug deal, or pimp negotiating a price for his hooker. It could be innocent, but most likely not.

Reasonable, responsible citizens do not hang out in high crime areas, at 1:30 am, with known hookers and drug dealers. The way to handle this, if no crime was found, wwould be to document the situation and put this guy in your memory bank. Any future similar situations would certainly warrant a review of his CCW license.

I think the charge of not informing them that he had a weapon is weak, at best. He did try to tell them. Cop 2 getting in the back seat with the driver still in there just kills me. Ridiculous.

As for the actions of cop #1, they speak for themselves and can't be defended. I didn't like his style right from the very beginning of the stop. You can communicate your expectations of how things are going to go without treating people like that right off the bat. If they are getting goofy, or not doing what you ask then you can escalate to that harsh demeanor, but you have to have something to escalate to. He started out at 10 and had nowhere to go but over the top. Just my observations.
 
Quote:Somehow, I believe my outcome would be a whole lot different, and my punishment much more severe, not to mention court fines, penalties, and maybe a criminal record that would follow me for the rest of my life...Couotejunkie,,That's true and the best reason for a civilian not to be in that position...

Officers, on the other hand do have legitimate reasons for entering bars with a firearm, just not to be imbibing, much less driving...There is usually a substantial difference in pay between the rank of Detective and Walking Beat Officer that will last for several years until the officer earns the right to get promoted, so that cost will more than eat up what a civilian would get fined...If it is a serious (Felony) offense, the officer usually loses his job and possibly career and retirement...

The department from which I retired, just lost a good Deputy Chief through 'early retirement', for having an affair with a subordinate..It wasn't that important until he was promoted to Deputy Chief...
 
Originally Posted By: steve154Although the actions of the Officer are way less than reasonable, I think that there are legitimate questions to be asked about the driver. I have been in 100's of similar situations and this one is just screaming drug deal, or pimp negotiating a price for his hooker. It could be innocent, but most likely not.

Reasonable, responsible citizens do not hang out in high crime areas, at 1:30 am, with known hookers and drug dealers. The way to handle this, if no crime was found, wwould be to document the situation and put this guy in your memory bank. Any future similar situations would certainly warrant a review of his CCW license.


Steve,
does the CCW law provide for a "review" of a license based on what a police officer decides is "responsible" or "reasonable" behavior?
 
I would also like to point out that I have seen many coppers catch 30 to 90 day suspensions for things that would have cost anyone else a $100.00 fine if arrested. No criminal prosecution in many cases, but a minor violation turns in to a defacto $10,000.00 fine. I would rather get charged, go to court and pay my $100.00 and have it be done than get suspended. Felony? If anyone thinks that cops get away with committing crimes you are very far off base. Dirty cops will get ratted out by their peers faster than you can say corruption.

If cop #1 in the video acts like that all the time and was just not having a bad day, I can guarantee you that his peers dislike him. He is the guy that shows up late to a call, after everything is de-escalated and eveyone is ready to clear and just by him showing up you end up fighting with 10 peaople and doing 4 hours of paperwork for nonsense. Maybe he does need to find a new line of work, or maybe he acted out of character and a month on the beach will help him to gain better control of himslef the next time he gets irriated.
 
Originally Posted By: OldTurtle
Couotejunkie,,That's true and the best reason for a civilian not to be in that position...

Officers, on the other hand do have legitimate reasons for entering bars with a firearm, just not to be imbibing, much less driving...There is usually a substantial difference in pay between the rank of Detective and Walking Beat Officer that will last for several years until the officer earns the right to get promoted, so that cost will more than eat up what a civilian would get fined...If it is a serious (Felony) offense, the officer usually loses his job and possibly career and retirement...



I understand that LEO's, when on duty, are supposed to go where the law breakers are. Kind of like preachers and sinners, right?
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I am keeping this respectful so it doesn't become another bashing thread.

I take issue with them not getting DUI's and tickets, etc. special treatment when breaking the law, unlike us civilians. If I lose the privilege to drive, I also lose my job. There is usually a substantial difference in pay between the rank of unemployed and employed in my field of work. Of course this outrage isn't just directed to the executive branch of gov't workers like police, it gets my dander up when I see the legislative branch get away with stuff civilians would get arrested and possibly jailed for. Not to mention all the other rights one can possibly lose such as CCW and firearm purchases with misdemeanor or felony charges on one record.

Do you think Joe Mokwa would have gotten a bonus to retire early if he was Joe the plumber?
 
fw, in NY state there is a process to get a hearing to revoke a pistol permit. It is not easy to get one revoked, even in NY, at least not in my county. I would bet that anywhere that has an actual permit issued that there is some process in place to be able to revoke that permit. This incident, without a crime and without the bogus failure to inform charge, would not even be close to getting it done and I don't think that it should for an isolated incident. Start stacking multiple, documented incidents like this up and if this guy really was looking to score dope, or employ a hooker, he will not stop what he is doing and will step on his wanker at some point and will get popped for a drug/prostitution crime. At that point you could get a hearing to revoke his permit. So, I guess I was not clear in my earlier post. My opinion, without actual crimes, or instances of being transported for menatal health evals, would not be enough to get a hearing and should not be enough to get a hearing.
 
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Originally Posted By: steve154fw, in NY state there is a process to get a hearing to revoke a pistol permit. It is not easy to get one revoked, even in NY, at least not in my county. I would bet that anywhere that has an actual permit issued that there is some process in place to be able to revoke that permit. This incident, without a crime and without the bogus failure to inform charge, would not even be close to getting it done and I don't think that it should for an isolated incident. Start stacking multiple, documented incidents like this up and if this guy really was looking to score dope, or employ a hooker, he will not stop what he is doing and will step on his wanker at some point and will get popped for a drug/prostitution crime. At that point you could get a hearing to revoke his permit. From my point of view, this is the only positive to having a permit system. Please no flames for that. I love it when I come across honest, decent people that are carrying. I think everyone should and wish more people would, but I do not want people that are engaging in crimes to be carrying a gun.

Thanks Steve!
If the CCW permit law has a provision for a "review" based on the commission (and conviction) of a crime, I'm all for it.

The guy in the video wasn't there passing out the Sunday school lesson for the next day, but he hadn't committed a crime either. In this case he was the victim of inexcusable conduct by a police officer, and in my opinion this situation alone should have no bearing whatsoever on his CCW license status.
 
Brendan, I don't disagree with you. Once is enough. That guy acted like a complete jacka$$. We do not know if he is a complete jacka$$. There is a difference. A good guy that messes up and lets his emotions get out of control once in 10 years on the job does not necessarily need to get fired. He did not beat the guy. If there is a history, then by all means have at hanging him out to dry. The same goes for the driver. He should also get the benefit of the doubt. Put both on the radar and future screw ups should result in action. Cop loses his job and driver loses his CCW.

On the flip side, this guy knew, or should have known, that he was on camera. He acted like that with the film rolling. What would he have done if it wasn't on camera? Can't help but ask yourself that either.
 
Steve, I know you're trying to be fair to the guy and give him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe in most jobs, that's all right. This is my take on it. Some jobs require a higher standard of self-control and ethical behavior than others- at least they ought to. Take me for example. I'm a teacher. In teaching, you only have to be accused of doing something inappropriate and you're pretty much done- if you get my drift. Even though I could easily get burned by such a system, I think it needs to operate in such a manner. Kids lives are too valuable for anything less. In police work, what's at stake is freedom from tyranny. No less important. Police need to be kept on a VERY short leash. They have too much power to be allowed to act like that. Not all people will be able to work under those conditions. Maybe others will function fine for a time and eventually break under pressure. When they do, it's time to go- and not to the beach for a month. It takes but one short look at some other countries to see the end result of politicians and police with too little accountability. Never for a second think, "Well, it'll never happen here." I'm sure you're a good guy. You sound (read)like one. I just thoroughly think a one strike rule should be in place for that kind of nonsense, and I'm happy that people get riled up when they see it. They should.
 
Cops do often protect other cops in my experience. The "thin blue line" is a phenomenon real enough that the term not only exists, it has become part of the common lexicon. Not all cops will protect other "bad" cops, and certainly (usually) not for any infraction, but oftentimes there is a most definite "us" (cops) vs "them" (everyone else) mentality. To some extent that's a normal and understandable reaction for cops that work in high crime areas where a large percentage of the people they encounter are lawbreakers, but even in those areas I believe that attitude is part of the reason so many of the law abiding victims who are forced to live in those areas distrust LEOs in general.

I think part of the problem has been a widespread lowering of standards over the years. That's due to a number of factors, most of which the departments have no control over. When you are required to pass over more qualified applicants in order to meet your quota of minority hires, it may sound great in theory, but the result is an overall degradation of the quality of your department, and over time as those less qualified applicants become preferred for promotions (affirmative action) the degradation in quality is infused from top to bottom and becomes systemic.

Direct legislative action is often counterproductive as well. I'm not sure if it's still in affect, but in NM the legislature passed a law that officers could work for a year before they went to the academy. The intent was to give the many small towns in NM time to evaluate a guy before they had to spend the money to send him to Socorro. The result was that there are (were?) a bunch of "cops" who are not close to being qualified (or qualifiable) who have been "on the job" for years. They just never work in any small town for more than a year before moving to another.

From that increasingly common superior "us/them" attitude, to the repeated stories of misbehaviour such as this one, to the cases of extreme malfeasance (google "Rampart Division") the profession as a whole has a growing problem IMHO.

Cops SHOULD be held to the highest standards of conduct. We give them huge power, and with that power comes huge responsibilities.

Good cops protecting bad (or even marginal) cops is decidedly unhelpful.

On the other hand, it's not all on the cops. It's somewhat difficult for us to expect higher standards of conduct from them, when we (society) have effectively lowered the standards of qualification to become a cop.






Quote:In teaching, you only have to be accused of doing something inappropriate and you're pretty much done- if you get my drift.

Brendan, it sounds like you may work in a pretty good school district, but as you are no doubt aware, that is not a universal situation.

In some places it's not even illegal:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/15/AR2010031501705.html



Even where school districts do remove teachers from the classroom, unless there a felony conviction, the norm is that it takes years and often hundreds of thousands of dollars to fire the teacher.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/08/31/090831fa_fact_brill

http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/15302


Just do a google search and you will find vast numbers of other examples from across the country.
 
This discussion is about officers and carry rights/laws but there are other professions that have similar problems as well.I mean a lot of professions seems to make the people in those professions stick together for self protection.Doctors come to mind,firemen,linemen,railroaders,drinking was a huge problem with railroaders at one time and they covered for each other.It is to some extent nature of men to stick up for their "own kind"I know it is not exactly the same and I do think this officer needs to do something else for a living for his good as well as the public.I just bring these things up to expand thinking and discussion on this important topic.I think it is very good to hear such wide spread views on topics like this.Many good points have come to the top.Please feel free to disagree. john
 
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