olympic arms, bushmaster, or rock river arms?
- Thread starter okoyote
- Start date
Mike at DTech is good to deal with and is very patient.. If I'm not mistaken you can get a semi-custom from him for not much more than a factory rifle.. And maybe a lot quicker..
.. If you're not going to be shooting heavy-for-caliber bullets you don't really need all that barrel.. For a .223 a 20" will most likely be just fine and if ya opt for something a little more exotic go with a 22"..
.. I ave a RRA 16" carbine and it's a neat little package.. The trigger reminds me a lot of a Savage Accu-Trigger.. RRA is just as prone to QA problems as anyone.. Mine will haveto go back here soon for some barrel/action alignment..
.. Good luck with whatever you choose.. d:^) JiNC
.. If you're not going to be shooting heavy-for-caliber bullets you don't really need all that barrel.. For a .223 a 20" will most likely be just fine and if ya opt for something a little more exotic go with a 22"..
.. I ave a RRA 16" carbine and it's a neat little package.. The trigger reminds me a lot of a Savage Accu-Trigger.. RRA is just as prone to QA problems as anyone.. Mine will haveto go back here soon for some barrel/action alignment..
.. Good luck with whatever you choose.. d:^) JiNC
Out of the 3 you mentioned the RR would be my choice as they offer 1 in 8 twist barrels. DPMS is my preferred choice as they offer fluted barrels and JP triggers from the factory. However, anyone can make a bad one now and then.
As far as barrel, this is pretty much preference of the shooter. I prefer the heavy barrel versions as in my opinion they shoot much better as far as accuracy and I shoot them better. However, the type of accuracy I expect is much different than what others expect. I use nothing but fluted barrels as well. I am use to packing around a 16-lb rifle at work so I don't think about weight as much as some.
As far as barrel, this is pretty much preference of the shooter. I prefer the heavy barrel versions as in my opinion they shoot much better as far as accuracy and I shoot them better. However, the type of accuracy I expect is much different than what others expect. I use nothing but fluted barrels as well. I am use to packing around a 16-lb rifle at work so I don't think about weight as much as some.
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Threewolves
Member
For accuracy check out Olympic Arms Broch cut rifling. Look at all their web sites and order their catalogs, way to many choices out there. I live about 2 miles from olympic arms so I can go/see/fondle, I think about it, but it is just tuff to give up a 22-250 that still will keep three rounds touching. I don't know,is that kinda like going out on your wife? I had a tuff time going from a 870 to an 11/87 too(sometimes I still shoot the 870). Take Care, Paul
dtech
New member
SteveM, I thought in an earlier post you had said you don't care for the Wilson barrels. Wilson is what you get if you order a DPMS AR with a bull barrel. I have used a dozen or so of the Wilson barrels and some have been real good barrels, others have been just so-so.
Olympic also produces a 1:8 twist barrel and they are available fluted as well.
I have used almost 800 barrels on ARs over the last 12 years, about 750 of them being Olympic Arms broach-cut barrels. What I have found is that many barrel makers can make a barrel that shoots good, if you want to make SURE you will get a barrel that shoots good, get an Oly broach-cut, stainless ultra match (SUM) barrel.
When I am building a custom AR the barrel blank is not a huge part of the investment. By the time I flute the barrel, thread it, install an integral compensator, bed it into a receiver and drill a hand guard for it, I have a huge investment of time in it. That's why I use the Oly SUM barrel. It's as close as you are going to get to a guarantee that you will have a "tack driver" and that I have not wasted my time on the barrel blank.
Okoyote, If you want to compare prices, give me a call. If you want references, just ask on this or any of the other boards.
Olympic also produces a 1:8 twist barrel and they are available fluted as well.
I have used almost 800 barrels on ARs over the last 12 years, about 750 of them being Olympic Arms broach-cut barrels. What I have found is that many barrel makers can make a barrel that shoots good, if you want to make SURE you will get a barrel that shoots good, get an Oly broach-cut, stainless ultra match (SUM) barrel.
When I am building a custom AR the barrel blank is not a huge part of the investment. By the time I flute the barrel, thread it, install an integral compensator, bed it into a receiver and drill a hand guard for it, I have a huge investment of time in it. That's why I use the Oly SUM barrel. It's as close as you are going to get to a guarantee that you will have a "tack driver" and that I have not wasted my time on the barrel blank.
Okoyote, If you want to compare prices, give me a call. If you want references, just ask on this or any of the other boards.
You asked for best reliablity and accuracy, if you want a 24" barrel go with a bushmaster varminter. Every brand makes good and bad guns from time to time but I don't care for RRA or Oly, they make decent guns but I don't care for them.
I prefer Colt myself for reliability and the three 16" HBARs with 1/9 twist I've shot would shoot under .500" people will talk BS about Colt but you simply can not beat them for reliability and my findings for accuracy have been hard to beat as well but you will pay a premium.
The bushmaster V-match is also a contender it comes in a 16", 20" or 24" and they shoot pretty good in spite of their chrome lined barrels, the varminter does not have chrome lining for the ultimate accuracy.
I prefer Colt myself for reliability and the three 16" HBARs with 1/9 twist I've shot would shoot under .500" people will talk BS about Colt but you simply can not beat them for reliability and my findings for accuracy have been hard to beat as well but you will pay a premium.
The bushmaster V-match is also a contender it comes in a 16", 20" or 24" and they shoot pretty good in spite of their chrome lined barrels, the varminter does not have chrome lining for the ultimate accuracy.
Jerry White
New member
Doesn't Colt use ER Shaw BBLs? And doesnt most of the AR distributers buy parts from the same manufacturer that colt buys them from? I refuse to buy an AR(for4-$500 more) for a pony stamped on the reciever. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
jerryboy
jerryboy
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Jerry White
New member
I just posted in anothe rthread that they were hit and miss in the accuracy Dept. And not real great when you do get a good one. I have seen posts of great groups from them though. Have to be fair.
jerryboy
jerryboy
Well since Colt uses 4150 steel and er shaw lists 4140, I'd say no. Colt produces their barrels in house except for some contract work that is set up by colt engineers on colt machinery to colt specs. And if colt uses the same old uppers and lowers as everybody else why do ya'll keep bitchin about the trigger pin sizes and the trigger shelf block? While it's true there are only so many forgers they do not always produce a finished product, they are finished out to different specs per company. I've seen some good "mil spec" uppers and lowers but I've seen some that were drilled wrong or the finish flaked off and if you have to file the finish off the uppers so the fit into the "mil spec" lowers, tell me how good the quality is there. Colt catches hell for their shaved bolt carrier too, is this the same as all the others except for the pony?
The bushmaster models I listed are their target models, I'm sure that a M4 type barrel is given less attention towards accuracy and more towards the cool look as a plinker. I have limited dealings with bushmaster I have owned two, my partner just bought a varminter that shoots exceptionaly well as did the V-match that I had did, the M4 lookalike that I owned had a mini y comp on it and I shot it a total of about 4 rounds before selling that deafening thing. I'm sure you guys can build some great guns but for the money I'll buy a colt or bushy. As for building one out of "mil spec" parts, I've seen too much crap out there to take my chances. One gun in particular was built with the "best" parts out there and was a total piece of crap. It was so bad the guy who had it built traded it the day he finally got to shoot it. Very dissappointing to say the least.
EDited out something I shouldn't have said, my apoligies.
The bushmaster models I listed are their target models, I'm sure that a M4 type barrel is given less attention towards accuracy and more towards the cool look as a plinker. I have limited dealings with bushmaster I have owned two, my partner just bought a varminter that shoots exceptionaly well as did the V-match that I had did, the M4 lookalike that I owned had a mini y comp on it and I shot it a total of about 4 rounds before selling that deafening thing. I'm sure you guys can build some great guns but for the money I'll buy a colt or bushy. As for building one out of "mil spec" parts, I've seen too much crap out there to take my chances. One gun in particular was built with the "best" parts out there and was a total piece of crap. It was so bad the guy who had it built traded it the day he finally got to shoot it. Very dissappointing to say the least.
EDited out something I shouldn't have said, my apoligies.
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Jerry White
New member
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Byron South
New member
Quote:
Out of all of the ARs I have sold more custom ARs to people that had a Bushmaster and were not happy with the accuracy than any of the other brands. Could be coincidence?
Probably not a coincidence. Bushmaster has been in business for over 25 years and sells more rifles than most of the others combined. I'd be willing to bet their are more customers also happy with their Bushmaster rifles accuracy than any other brand.
I have been full circle with AR's. My first AR was a Bushy Shorty A1. I still have this rifle and it still shoots sub MOA groups after years of abuse. I have also had a couple of extremely accurate AR's built when I decided exactly what I wanted. I wanted a 20" fluted barrel, free floated, and need a good triger. These rifles will shoot sub 1/2 inch groups with the blue box stuff from Black-Hills amo all day long. I have since gone back to a Bushy V-Max with a fluted barrel. Accually I have a 16" V-match on its way as well. These rifles will do anything the customs will except drive tacks.
The reasons I like the Bushmaster V-Match
1.Cheaper
2.They offer fluted barrels
3. Chrome lining. I carry my rifle almost everyday in all kinds of weather. Chrome lined barrels last longer and they are eaier to clean. They also aid in the relibility and function. I have been around lots of Bushmaster chrome lined barrels and most of them will shoot as well if not better than the Wilsons. I'm sure both have produced lemons. I haven't seen any though that won't produce minute of coyote groups out further than most should ever attempt to shoot at one. If your rifle is capable of shooting 1.5" groups at 100 yards then this means the bullet will strike within 3/4 " of point of aim and at 200 yards within 1.5" of point of aim(allowing for trajectory). Plenty good for any coyote rifle.
The reasons I like my customs. Well theres only one. Accuracy. How much do you need for coyotes? I hate inaccurate rifles as much as I hate a bad headache. But heck MOA is pretty damn accurate for a coyote rifle.
All this being said. If I had the money and wanted a extremely nice, accurate rifle, Dtech would be the man to build it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif. If I just wanted a good serviceable calling rifle with the featues I like I would try a Bushmaster V-Match. OH yeah!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif I already did. Put the money you save into good optics. I hate to see 30 dollor scopes on nice rifles /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angry-smiley-055.gif.
What ever you get make sure you get a good trigger. This is another subject all together and also up to personal preferance. I like the Jewels.
Out of all of the ARs I have sold more custom ARs to people that had a Bushmaster and were not happy with the accuracy than any of the other brands. Could be coincidence?
Probably not a coincidence. Bushmaster has been in business for over 25 years and sells more rifles than most of the others combined. I'd be willing to bet their are more customers also happy with their Bushmaster rifles accuracy than any other brand.
I have been full circle with AR's. My first AR was a Bushy Shorty A1. I still have this rifle and it still shoots sub MOA groups after years of abuse. I have also had a couple of extremely accurate AR's built when I decided exactly what I wanted. I wanted a 20" fluted barrel, free floated, and need a good triger. These rifles will shoot sub 1/2 inch groups with the blue box stuff from Black-Hills amo all day long. I have since gone back to a Bushy V-Max with a fluted barrel. Accually I have a 16" V-match on its way as well. These rifles will do anything the customs will except drive tacks.
The reasons I like the Bushmaster V-Match
1.Cheaper
2.They offer fluted barrels
3. Chrome lining. I carry my rifle almost everyday in all kinds of weather. Chrome lined barrels last longer and they are eaier to clean. They also aid in the relibility and function. I have been around lots of Bushmaster chrome lined barrels and most of them will shoot as well if not better than the Wilsons. I'm sure both have produced lemons. I haven't seen any though that won't produce minute of coyote groups out further than most should ever attempt to shoot at one. If your rifle is capable of shooting 1.5" groups at 100 yards then this means the bullet will strike within 3/4 " of point of aim and at 200 yards within 1.5" of point of aim(allowing for trajectory). Plenty good for any coyote rifle.
The reasons I like my customs. Well theres only one. Accuracy. How much do you need for coyotes? I hate inaccurate rifles as much as I hate a bad headache. But heck MOA is pretty damn accurate for a coyote rifle.
All this being said. If I had the money and wanted a extremely nice, accurate rifle, Dtech would be the man to build it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif. If I just wanted a good serviceable calling rifle with the featues I like I would try a Bushmaster V-Match. OH yeah!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif I already did. Put the money you save into good optics. I hate to see 30 dollor scopes on nice rifles /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angry-smiley-055.gif.
What ever you get make sure you get a good trigger. This is another subject all together and also up to personal preferance. I like the Jewels.
gary paugh
New member
I've got a 20" v-match that will shoot a 5/8" 10 shot group with 60gr v-max bullets.
And a 16" ultra match barrel on a bushmaster lower that will group in the 1/2" range.
Both have match triggers and 3x9 scopes.
Both are great calling guns IMHO.
Gary
And a 16" ultra match barrel on a bushmaster lower that will group in the 1/2" range.
Both have match triggers and 3x9 scopes.
Both are great calling guns IMHO.
Gary
Yes Jerry I've heard of that place, even bought an upper from them. Ever hear of Diameco? They are now owned by Colt and have been producing uppers for several brands for years. As I said there are only so many forging companies out there BUT they produce pieces to customer specs or produce raw forgings to be finished out by someone else entirely to customer specs. Bushmaster specs are different than Colt as are any other company out there. If you believe they are all the same by all means by a no name part but when the finish flakes off or the buffer retaining pin hole is drilled in the wrong spot or the safety hole is drilled lower than it should be and an expensive aftermarket trigger that is up to specs won't fit without modifications to the safety or the two halves won't go together and you have to file the finish off remember this, mil spec means low bid. The pony doesn't make any difference but they do have a product in spec.
Continental Machine Tool and Lewis Machine Tool make MOST of the AR15 lower recievers and/or forgings on the market right now.........Don't think so? Check your serial number.....CM00#### stands for CMT.......LM00### stands for LMT mfg....Some lowers have different configurations for serial number sequence.
If parts are made to different specs......how is it that my DPMS internal parts work fine when interchanged with Bushmaster, Stag, and Colt parts? They should all be made to the SAME specification. Especially for those countries who claim to have a military contract....Different specs where parts aren't compatible - not good. I have some AR's which have at least five companies represented in their build. They run fine.
My Bushmaster is an LMT. My Stag arms and Century Arms lowers are CMT mfg. My friends RRA - is made my CMT or LMT - I forget.....A couple companies make their own stuff - but MOST AR15 companies are parts assemblers.......Very impressive...they assemble AR15's - something that most gun owners, with reasonable knowledge, can do on their own in a matter of minutes.......
Building an AR15 - match grade or otherwise isnt rocket science. This faux idea that one AR company has special insider secrets is complete bullcrap. If it meets the same QA/QC standards - who cares about the label?
There is a reason that RRA, Stag, Century, and Bushmaster look almost identical. And many a Colt has been made by CMT. I believe DPMS lowers may be contracted out to - but not sure. Olympic Arms appears to do its own thing.
Which AR15 is best? The one that works for you. Every company has put a bad AR15 out here and there. I own a Colt, a Bushmaster, Stag, and two Century lower AR's...I previously owned an Olympic Arms. I am happy with all the guns - save Colt's odd-sized parts in their politically correct sporter model.
People can continue to pay $800 on up for a NIB AR15 if they like.....that's fine - but why pay overcost for a label when you don't have to.....when you can build the same firearm EASILY for $500-$600 with no appreciable difference in quality or accuracy.
If parts are made to different specs......how is it that my DPMS internal parts work fine when interchanged with Bushmaster, Stag, and Colt parts? They should all be made to the SAME specification. Especially for those countries who claim to have a military contract....Different specs where parts aren't compatible - not good. I have some AR's which have at least five companies represented in their build. They run fine.
My Bushmaster is an LMT. My Stag arms and Century Arms lowers are CMT mfg. My friends RRA - is made my CMT or LMT - I forget.....A couple companies make their own stuff - but MOST AR15 companies are parts assemblers.......Very impressive...they assemble AR15's - something that most gun owners, with reasonable knowledge, can do on their own in a matter of minutes.......
Building an AR15 - match grade or otherwise isnt rocket science. This faux idea that one AR company has special insider secrets is complete bullcrap. If it meets the same QA/QC standards - who cares about the label?
There is a reason that RRA, Stag, Century, and Bushmaster look almost identical. And many a Colt has been made by CMT. I believe DPMS lowers may be contracted out to - but not sure. Olympic Arms appears to do its own thing.
Which AR15 is best? The one that works for you. Every company has put a bad AR15 out here and there. I own a Colt, a Bushmaster, Stag, and two Century lower AR's...I previously owned an Olympic Arms. I am happy with all the guns - save Colt's odd-sized parts in their politically correct sporter model.
People can continue to pay $800 on up for a NIB AR15 if they like.....that's fine - but why pay overcost for a label when you don't have to.....when you can build the same firearm EASILY for $500-$600 with no appreciable difference in quality or accuracy.
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My serial number starts CJC do you know who made it? Not trying to be smart I'd really like to know. I know my upper was made by diameco by the forging marks.
I gave my opinin based on my experience, I used the terminoligy of "different specs" when different tolerances would be more accurate. Buy what you want, it makes me no difference, just don't tell me they're all the same and then complain about the differences. Colt does not make the only quality gun out there but you won't find one any better and even fewer as good. It all comes down to quality control, it may come from the same forger but how was it finished and will it pass QC.
Sorry this got off topic just remember if you buy a colt you'll have to put up with this crap everywhere you go.
And Byron, nice rewrite to pitch the advertiser.
I gave my opinin based on my experience, I used the terminoligy of "different specs" when different tolerances would be more accurate. Buy what you want, it makes me no difference, just don't tell me they're all the same and then complain about the differences. Colt does not make the only quality gun out there but you won't find one any better and even fewer as good. It all comes down to quality control, it may come from the same forger but how was it finished and will it pass QC.
Sorry this got off topic just remember if you buy a colt you'll have to put up with this crap everywhere you go.
And Byron, nice rewrite to pitch the advertiser.
Factory- I'd go Oly.
But I wouldn't go factory- I would and will sometime in the future go straight to DTEC. Or you can watch the used market but be carefull if going that route.
Now my AR experience is very limited. My buddy shoots an armalite and I shoot a clark custom. However, there are some people out there, (i.e. DTEC and others) that when they talk I shut up and listen.
I really like my rifle and it shoots very, very well, but if DTEC challenged me to a shooting match using one of his builds I would dencline very very quickly. To buy each new you would save lots of cash going to DTEC. You do the math.
Matt
But I wouldn't go factory- I would and will sometime in the future go straight to DTEC. Or you can watch the used market but be carefull if going that route.
Now my AR experience is very limited. My buddy shoots an armalite and I shoot a clark custom. However, there are some people out there, (i.e. DTEC and others) that when they talk I shut up and listen.
I really like my rifle and it shoots very, very well, but if DTEC challenged me to a shooting match using one of his builds I would dencline very very quickly. To buy each new you would save lots of cash going to DTEC. You do the math.
Matt
Byron South
New member
Tom,
Dtech don't need me to plug his rifles. I wouldn't want DTechs job for all the money in the world. Everybody expects their rifles to shoot 1/2 inch even though they (The operator) can't shoot 1/2 inch even with a 1/4 inch gun. I admire a person with the ability to put these kind of guns together, but I admire them more for dealing with the people they build them for. As for as uppers and lowers go and for that matter AR parts in general, it ain't that big a deal who made it. The way understand it, it's the barrel and the way it was chambered that will make it shoot tight little groups. All the upper and lower recievers do is keep the pieces from falling apart. There is some junk out there for sure, but if you stick with brand name AR it's tough to find one that won't shoot well. Can't say that about a lot of the bolt guns that are being produced as of late, even by some of the old brand name companies. I like my Bushy V-Matches because it comes with the options I like for a walking around using gun and I can depend on it when I need it (lucky for me, thats a lot). I don't like to lug around bull barreled rifles for a calling gun. I also don't like getting 24 inch AR's in and out of the truck all day. I have talked with several manufactuers of ARs about building dedicated predator rifles. They all say we already do. we call it our "VARMIT humdinger whatchamacallit special". Well the rifle they always show me is the one with the biggest ugliest barrel they can put on one. I would love to have one of these marketing wizzards follow me around lugging that damn thing around for a week or so and then call it a coyote or predator hunting rifle. The V-match is the closest thing I have found that matches my desciption of the perfect calling rifle.
Varmit are rats, ground hogs, and such. Predators are a whole different ball game.
Byron
Dtech don't need me to plug his rifles. I wouldn't want DTechs job for all the money in the world. Everybody expects their rifles to shoot 1/2 inch even though they (The operator) can't shoot 1/2 inch even with a 1/4 inch gun. I admire a person with the ability to put these kind of guns together, but I admire them more for dealing with the people they build them for. As for as uppers and lowers go and for that matter AR parts in general, it ain't that big a deal who made it. The way understand it, it's the barrel and the way it was chambered that will make it shoot tight little groups. All the upper and lower recievers do is keep the pieces from falling apart. There is some junk out there for sure, but if you stick with brand name AR it's tough to find one that won't shoot well. Can't say that about a lot of the bolt guns that are being produced as of late, even by some of the old brand name companies. I like my Bushy V-Matches because it comes with the options I like for a walking around using gun and I can depend on it when I need it (lucky for me, thats a lot). I don't like to lug around bull barreled rifles for a calling gun. I also don't like getting 24 inch AR's in and out of the truck all day. I have talked with several manufactuers of ARs about building dedicated predator rifles. They all say we already do. we call it our "VARMIT humdinger whatchamacallit special". Well the rifle they always show me is the one with the biggest ugliest barrel they can put on one. I would love to have one of these marketing wizzards follow me around lugging that damn thing around for a week or so and then call it a coyote or predator hunting rifle. The V-match is the closest thing I have found that matches my desciption of the perfect calling rifle.
Varmit are rats, ground hogs, and such. Predators are a whole different ball game.
Byron
Jerry White
New member
Welcome to the board m4556mm!
jerryboy
jerryboy