over stabilized bullets

Originally Posted By: scott2506Originally Posted By: CatShooter
orkan said:
CatShooter said:
As a side note, I am amazed.... I mean absolutely AMAZED... at the large number of shooters on the internet that have rifles that shoot 1" (1/4 moa) groups at 400 and 500 yards. I mean, that is getting very close, I mean within fractions of an inch, of being benchrest World Record performance.

Guys build $5,000 rifles that weigh 17 pounds, in exotic calibres, with 45X scopes on top, and they don't do that well...

I must be doing something wrong...
frown.gif
frown.gif
frown.gif




I doubt anyone is clamming they shoot 1 inch 400 yard groups "ALL THE TIME"
No one is claiming that they get this EVERY group.

Catshooter, I've personally seen you post your ultra rare 1/4 inch 100 yard groups on the net also also. A lot of people do it. It is not a bad thing to share some success.

Personally I'd rather have a gun that shoots 1/2 moa or less all the time, than one that shoots 1/4 moa part of the time and 3/4 MOA the other part.

I have shot 2 different 3 shot groups in a row at 200 yards that measured 0.500 inch and 0.495 inch with my old Factory 25-06 factory 26 inch bbl Ruger M77.
just 3 shot groups but it has 1400+ round down the tube and is quite burned out and I can not keep that up on average anymore, it used to be avg a 1/2 MOA gun.
I've shot 1.5 inch groups at 400 yards. It is not that hard. Can I average this? no! Last week I shot just one group at 401 yards, it messured 2 inches exactly or 1/2 MOA. LUCK? probably!
My 204 shoots a few 1/4 moa groups every time I go out, most are 1/2 moa or less but I admit some groups flyer open to 2/3 moa. I've shot a 3 shot group of 0.024 inch with it.. or 1/40th MOA at 100 yards.
I have bad eye's and I am not that good of a shooter at all either.

A lot of people here as well as the rest of the net can do much better than I can.. much better.

Some people don't have the mega dollars to to have $5000 17 lb guns with 45x scopes and exotic calibers, they are just born to be better shooters than you and I are.


Have a good day

I never claimed that I shot groups like on a regular basis. that is the best group I ever shot - - but I was invited to witness 1" groups @ 400 or 500 yards, "anytime you like, any place you like"...

That pretty much sounds like a constant level of performance.

I don't hear that very often.

Have a good day!!
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Originally Posted By: ninehorsesCatShooter,


I am also wondering how the OP was pushing a 85 grain Nosler at 3700 out of his 25-06. I get good accuracy with the 85's with RE 19, 56.5 grains, runs around 3550 fps. In four rifles this is a good load, and is close to max buy the way the primers look.


85 BT 58.0 (don't remember) grain of H4831 3705 fps from a 26 inch bbl. 60.0 of Re-19 gives me around 3670 fps with the 90 blitzkings, but 55.0 is only 3370 fps.
I use H4350 and 55.0 grains at around 3550 I also soso accuracy out to 400 yards. my only group was 2.25 inches at 425 yards. some of the ones I just fired 2 shots at (and don't count that as a group) 1.2 to 1.3 inches apart.

At 625 yards groups opened up to 6 inches shots are a foot low and about a foot to the right with no wind vs the chart.

This is the whole point of the thread I started. it's not about accuracy, it how a bullet travels, and drops, and what we THINK we have in Ballistic coefficient may not be true at longer ranges. My charts are not just 3550 fps and the 0.388 bc of the bullet. I use the full spectrum of the BC Sierra gives me. bullets overspun do not nose down as they should.


most long range shooters will not experience this as they use fast twist with long heavy bullets or slow twist with light bullets.
3550-3600 fps is a lot of spin with a 10 twist and a shorter bullet. 400 yards is too short of a range to test this.

Originally Posted By: ninehorsesCatShooter,
The OP states his drop charts are wrong, it could be that he's not shooting as fast as he thinks. Just an observation.


I have a chronograph

Originally Posted By: ninehorsesCatShooter,
I have Bryan's book, but I'm not ashamed to say reading it gives me a headache. Just too tech. in a lot of ways. SO... Keep it simple.
tt2.gif


I think he is simple. Not read his book, so I can't comment on it, but have read his writings. I can say I don't completely agree with everything he says. but his knowledge is for the most part, facts. To each his own I guess.

 
Last edited:
I will add that since you said your rifle is low and right that could be as simple as your turret not being aligned perfectly with your bore ... Windage wise.
3 to 4 degrees off easily could cause that much right/left
 
Originally Posted By: CatShooterNo need to re-evaluate anything... if that is your experience, then you have other issues. Parallax is the first to come to mind, but there are others. We disagree, so I must not know how to run a parallax? Interesting, but I think not.

Do you own a 375CT, 408CT, or 416B, and have you spent time shooting the big solids?

If not, is it possible that you might not believe the concept exists because you've not been forced to acknowledge it? Years ago, I didn't know about it either, prior to spending time with the big boomers. I heard people talking about it, but I never had enough experience to prove or disprove what they were saying.
 
Originally Posted By: orkanOriginally Posted By: CatShooterNo need to re-evaluate anything... if that is your experience, then you have other issues. Parallax is the first to come to mind, but there are others. We disagree, so I must not know how to run a parallax? Interesting, but I think not.

Do you own a 375CT, 408CT, or 416B, and have you spent time shooting the big solids?

If not, is it possible that you might not believe the concept exists because you've not been forced to acknowledge it? Years ago, I didn't know about it either, prior to spending time with the big boomers. I heard people talking about it, but I never had enough experience to prove or disprove what they were saying.


"Big Boomers"??? Oh, golly.... you gotta be kidding!

I currently shoot a match grade 50-BMG.

In the beginning of the 408 project, it was being funded by a wealthy doctor. I was advising Dean Michaelis, who called himself, "Trigger-fifty"... (he was their "Front man") in the beginning of the 408 project.
Prior to that, Dean had no experience testing long range rifles.

Dean (and the 408 CT project) were getting bronze bullets that were made up in Idaho, by a guy that claimed to have majored in ballistics and ordinance engineering at West Point.

It turned out that he majored in public relations, and had no engineering or ordinance experience at all. When the news broke on "The Sniper's Hide", he was out of business in 6 months, and has never been heard of since.

The doctor wrote a three part article for Precision Shooting magazine, and in the second part, he made the statement that bullets fly straight until they slow to the speed of sound, then they promptly turn down at 45° and hit the ground. (It is obvious he had never fired tracers).

That was the beginning of the temporary death knell for the 408 CT, and Dean's crude personality, and his BS stories about how he won the whole Iraq war all by himself, on the 50-BMG website, finished the 408 CT for a few years.

It was resurrected by another group, and for several years, brass was the biggest problem they had to getting it off the ground again - they went from company to company, going through European makers and winding up with a company in SoDak... I don't know who's making the brass now.

The whole 408 CT thing ruined Dean''s reputation in the firearms field, and he left to become a male nurse - and I don't think he has been heard of since, either.

So, I have experience with big, long bullets.

 
Originally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: orkanOriginally Posted By: CatShooter
To make a case for a rifle that shoots smaller groups at long range, you must be able to do it over and over... which no one can.
This is not true. I would ask you to re-evaluate your position.

I can take you out anytime you like, anywhere you like, with a .375CT, and show you a 1" group at 100yds, that will stay a 1" group out to about 400-500yds. As I said, a group size which is smaller in linear distance is unlikely, but a group size which is smaller in angular units is very, very likely.

The longer the projectile, the more pronounced the effect. Hence why it isn't normally identified, and thus is completely dismissed by those whom have not spent a great deal of time with the larger cartridges. Yet when you are launching a projo which is 2" in length... things change.

I have no doubt that the same principles apply to shorter projectiles, yet it is harder to identify.


No need to re-evaluate anything... if that is your experience, then you have other issues. Parallax is the first to come to mind, but there are others.

Bullets do not travel that way.

But to be fair, I'll take you up on your offer...

"I can take you out anytime you like, anywhere you like, with a .375CT, and show you a 1" group at 100yds, that will stay a 1" group out to about 400".

... Ledyard Sportsman's Association, Ledyard Connecticut. Any Saturday you like.

As a side note, I am amazed.... I mean absolutely AMAZED... at the large number of shooters on the internet that have rifles that shoot 1" (1/4 moa) groups at 400 and 500 yards. I mean, that is getting very close, I mean within fractions of an inch, of being benchrest World Record performance.

Guys build $5,000 rifles that weigh 17 pounds, in exotic calibres, with 45X scopes on top, and they don't do that well...

I must be doing something wrong...
frown.gif
frown.gif
frown.gif





this response was exactly what i hoped would come out. i would gladly buy a plane ticket to anywhere in the country to witness someone produce the 1" group at 400 yards more than once. but if you cant do it, you owe me the plane ticket cost. a claim like that sounds like something you would hear late at night at a biker bar.

well said cat.
 
Good story.

The company in "sodak" you are talking about is Jamison. You obviously have more experience than I do with 50bmg. It's obvious that I have more than you do with .375CT.

However, I'm not the only one whom has witnessed this with .375CT. Far from it. I certainly didn't discover it, because when I went looking for an explanation, it wasn't hard to find.
 
Originally Posted By: venaticI will add that since you said your rifle is low and right that could be as simple as your turret not being aligned perfectly with your bore ... Windage wise.
3 to 4 degrees off easily could cause that much right/left

Thanks for the reply and helpful info, and that makes sense of what your talking about. But it hits 1-2 inches right at 400 and a ft right at 600. the math doesn't equate,

I have a scope level, scope to bore axes means very little, but I do work to get the cross hairs strait to the bore..

The 115 VLD's launched at 3200 fps don't do this.
from 200 to 400 it's all right on in horizontal with the 115's

Physics would be that a bullet say going to 400 might be somewhat strait, but after that with it's nose arched up some while the bullet is on a downward travel would not only kill off velocity but with a right twist the bottom of the bullet would have more pressure than the top, spinning clockwise (bullet going away from you) the bottom would in essence be like a water wheel from the groves. The groves may not be much, but spinning at 240,000 rpms it's going to steer right some.
I would have not believed this either, sounds like mombo jumbo, but I've never experienced this before, so I researched my problem. after reading it, everything makes more sense. Bryan Litz of Berger bullets knows all too well about this also.

I'm not sure if this is the problem, could be space aliens tractor beaming my bullet after 400 to make it hit right and low at 600 yards. YES, THAT'S IT!!!!

Thanks
 
Originally Posted By: orkanGood story.

The company in "sodak" you are talking about is Jamison. You obviously have more experience than I do with 50bmg. It's obvious that I have more than you do with .375CT.


It makes no difference - they both shoot large bullets... but my large bullets can beat up your kinda large bullets
tt2.gif



Quote:However, I'm not the only one whom has witnessed this with .375CT. Far from it. I certainly didn't discover it, because when I went looking for an explanation, it wasn't hard to find.

I'm sure you grabbed on to the first "explanation" you came across... kinnda like the "Flat Earth" society.

Let me know when your bringing your "Big Boomer" gun to Ledyard - I'll have a welcoming committee waiting for you.
 
Originally Posted By: 6724
this response was exactly what i hoped would come out. i would gladly buy a plane ticket to anywhere in the country to witness someone produce the 1" group at 400 yards more than once. but if you cant do it, you owe me the plane ticket cost. a claim like that sounds like something you would hear late at night at a biker bar.

well said cat.

1 inch groups at 400 isn't that big a deal, the org poster did not say he could do it EVERY GROUP. Out of 6-8 groups if he shoots some 1/2 moa and one or two 1/4 moa groups at 400 yards, then turns around and shoots at 100 yards and say only shoots a few 1/2 and 3/4 moa groups, it would prove his point.

Before I have 1400 round through my now burned out 25-06, I could on a regular basses shoot 1/2 moa.. out to 400 yards with a junk factory barrel, my last two groups at 400 (just 3 shots) was 2.25 inches at 425 yards with 90 Sierras. and 2.00 inches at 401 yards with the 115 Bergers. Factory Clunkbucket Ruger M77, and me a half blind below avg shooter.

I'm sure a good aftermarket bbl would cut this avg in half.
if I still had good vision. So with a better shooter and better equipment a 1 inch at 400 yrd group is not big deal (I've seen it before), esp in calm winds.

There is guys out there shooting 1.5 inch 600 yards groups all the time. The record is like 0.375 inch at 600. something that is 4 times bigger is a cakewalk for those who have good equipment/glass and practice.

have a good day

 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: scott2506

1 inch groups at 400 isn't that big a deal, the org poster did not say he could do it EVERY GROUP. Out of 6-8 groups if he shoots some 1/2 moa and one or two 1/4 moa groups at 400 yards, then turns around and shoots at 100 yards and say only shoots a few 1/2 and 3/4 moa groups, it would prove his point.



Well, actually he did.

"I can take you out anytime you like, anywhere you like, with a .375CT, and show you a 1" group at 100yds, that will stay a 1" group out to about 400-500yds. As I said, a group size which is smaller in linear distance is unlikely, but a group size which is smaller in angular units is very, very likely."

He said it will "Stay 1"..." Stay means over and over - not once in a while.
If the groups vary that much at 100 and 400 yards, then there is NOTHING to deduce any "theory" from - it is just garbage spattered over paper.

If his rifle is that unpredictable, then no conclusions can be drawn from anything... it is just random holes in paper.

 
Originally Posted By: CatShooter
Well, actually he did.



He said it will "Stay 1""... If the groups vary that much at 100 and 400 yards, then there is NOTHING to deduce any "theory from - it is just garbage spattered over paper.

If his rifle is that unpredictable, then no conclusions can be drawn from anything... it is just random holes in paper.




He said about 400-500 yards, and show a 1" 400 yard group. that doesn't mean EVERY group will be 1.000 inches

if he would shot a 1.2 a 1.4 a 1.3 a 1.0 and a 0.9 inch group. close enough.
the debate is not his group, but how he gets better moa at 400 than 100, it doesn't make sense, I agree with you, but I've seen it happen.

1.00 inch every group @ 400. Maybe this is far fetched. Maybe he is exaggerating. but I would not bet money against him that he can't shoot a 1 inch 400 yard group out of 3-6 groups. if he has a quality custom rig, good glass and can hold his own behind the trigger.
 
I don't know about anyone else but I'm still trying to make the connection from a 375 sumthin or another and a bunch of Internet tight group talk into how it applies to bullet over stabilization. It aint workin for me, I just can't get there from here with the arguements for it.
 
When it comes time to put up money on some of these claimed 400 yard groups, I want in.

And I'll wake up my bullets that fell asleep. They'll want a piece of the action too.
 
Originally Posted By: scott2506Originally Posted By: CatShooter
Well, actually he did.



He said it will "Stay 1""... If the groups vary that much at 100 and 400 yards, then there is NOTHING to deduce any "theory from - it is just garbage spattered over paper.

If his rifle is that unpredictable, then no conclusions can be drawn from anything... it is just random holes in paper.




He said about 400-500 yards, and show a 1" 400 yard group. that doesn't mean EVERY group will be 1.000 inches

if he would shot a 1.2 a 1.4 a 1.3 a 1.0 and a 0.9 inch group. close enough.
the debate is not his group, but how he gets better moa at 400 than 100, it doesn't make sense, I agree with you, but I've seen it happen.

1.00 inch every group @ 400. Maybe this is far fetched. Maybe he is exaggerating. but I would not bet money against him that he can't shoot a 1 inch 400 yard group out of 3-6 groups. if he has a quality custom rig, good glass and can hold his own behind the trigger.


It's not whether it can shoot 1" groups at 400-500 yards, but whether the same rig can't shoot better than 1 inch at 100 yards. He says his rifle can't shoot better than 1" at 100, bt he can reliably shoot 1" at 400-500 yards.

I do that very same test 15 to 20 hours a month - load for 100 yards, zero at 100, and then shoot on drop targets at 400 yards for BC data... and none of this stuff holds water..


 
Originally Posted By: CatShooterI'm sure you grabbed on to the first "explanation" you came across... kinnda like the "Flat Earth" society. You are quite offensive, but I'm sure you knew that.
 
Originally Posted By: orkan

Originally Posted By: CatShooter
I'm sure you grabbed on to the first "explanation" you came across... kinda like the "Flat Earth" society.

You are quite offensive, but I'm sure you knew that.



I know that... It is caused by my allergies.

I am allergic to bullshet!

 
I'm not sure what shocks me more. The fact that you think a 1" group with a 375CT is so difficult at 300-400yds, or the fact that you are so determined to convince others that it can't be done.

In the last year, I've seen 4 people buy DTA HTI rifles in 375CT using factory ammo whom have replicated what I'm describing.

Your continued denial of the facts which others and I have seen repeatedly with our own eyes has me laughing at this point. Yet it has been my experience that the more knowledge someone has, the harder it is for them to acknowledge new principles. By that definition, I have no doubt that you are quite informed.

I'd remind you of this:
“When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.”
- Socrates

I'll leave this thread with a simple fact of physics. Spin stabilized projectiles will behave differently, based on shape, composition, launch velocity, and rpm of the projectile.

For the further consideration of those that would try to downplay the above laws of physics... I'd refer you to a post by Russ @ DTM. Not a whole lot of people with the experience he has with a .375CT. He does it for a living... 50-60hrs a week, and then for himself in his spare time. You can't buy that kind of experience, and he shares it for free to those willing to listen.

http://forum.snipershide.com/elr-beyond-1000-yards/215911-375ct-100yd-groups-vs-300yd-groups.html

It's clear that "cat" will be allowed to say whatever offensive comments he wants in this thread, stifling the conversation, in a feeble attempt to convince people how what others and I have seen is false. For that reason, I'll refrain from posting any further. However, the rest of you can feel free to PM me if you want to further discuss how/why this strange bullet behavior happens.
 
Back
Top