Penetration test for a substitute to Dead Coyote Shot Shells. Photos

S

SalemDawger

New member
I went to buy another box of Dead Coyote and my local store was out, so I found a box of Remington Wingmaster HD 3 ½ in 1 5/8 oz T shot with a velocity of 1350. The same specs and Dead Coyote but it is a few bucks cheaper at 27 bucks a box. So I thought I would give it a try. I also bought a new extra full Carlson's Extended Turkey ported choke. I have heard guys brag about 80-90 yard kills with dead coyote but have never tried it at that range and am skeptical. I have always thought that 50 yards would be my max range.

I cut a coyote sized rectangle out of poster board and taped it to ¾ in high density melamine as a penetration test. I thought I would shoot it at 60 yards, ten yards farther than my limit.

I could not believe what I found when I went up to the target. 29 t shot had hit my coyote sized target. The patterning was better than I could have hoped for with excellent distribution. The T shot had also blown clear through the melamine and left large exist holes. The snow behind the target had tons of chips of melamine for more than 5 yards behind it. After the test I think I will take shot out to 70 yards with these loads.

What do you guys think? What have you found the clean killing range of Dead Coyote or other load to be?

I also shot a 3 in #4 buck at 70 yards. In the 2 foot by 3foot board I only had 5 hits and only 3 would have been within the coyote. How far would you shoot #4 buck. I was disappointed in the buck shot for sure.

Here are two photos.
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Hope this was useful, any imput would be welcome. I will try more test when I have more time.
 
Thats awesome Salem! I know derbyacres really likes those shells. I havent bought any but I might now after seeing those results. I have killed a few coyotes with dead coyote it does hit them hard. I think my farthest with the dc was 45 yards. I have just been using Federal #4. I have killed one at 50-55 yards. I have a jelly head ported choke. I plan on buying a Carlsons dead coyote choke and patterning that with the #4 buck, DC and the Remington HD in the spring.
 
Nice test. It's cool to see and hear a real world test of a product. I seldom take a shotgun to a stand. I always felt 40 yards was the max distance I felt comfortable taking aim at a coyote. That load/choke combo look deadly.
 


The saltydawg lives! Man I though you must have forgot your login or something. Thanks man.

I am sitting here wondering about good materials for penetration tests. I hope this weekend we will have many many opportunities to try it on the real thing. Salty, hope you can make it!

Man you are up to 14 posts. I hate guys who just post to post just to get their numbers up. I guess sometimes the guys who know the most, post the least.:
 
Looking forward to next weekend. We'll definetely have a chance to try it out for real. I do a lot more reading than posting to be sure, but this site is the best resource on the web for predator and varmint hunting.
 
Cool stuff.Unfortunetly T shot is illegal here (I think) it is anyway.But I was going to suggest using old phonebooks soaked in water for the penetration test.
A coyote would be even better to test it out on. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
 
If you read this thread (see the link below) you'll find Bob did some penetration test with catalogs and the Wingmaster HD was the penetration king. The HD shot isn't as brittle as Dead Coyote either which counts when it slams into heavy bones. Once after a bobcat hung up on me at 65 yards and I had my shotgun with No. Four Buck, I shot a test shot at that range just to see if I could have put any pellets into the cat as it faced me. I shot a 20 ounce bottle of water to test. I did hit the water bottle with three No. Four Buck pellets, however, one of those pellets was still inside the water bottle! That particular pellet had hit a hard bend in the bottle where the plastic was harder and mashed out nearly flat. This pellet was lying in the bottom of the plastic water bottle. That really made me consider how much penetration you could get if you hit heavier weight bones with a plated lead load at a distance. I've been using the HD-BB's with excellent results. The first coyote I shot was a long shot from an 18 ½” barrel with a .680” choke and I head shot that rascal through some really heavy brush. I was up on a little knoll above the bottom where the coyote was and shooting down into the brush from above, so that helped. At the shot the coyote dropped DRT, which surprised me because it was so danged far. No, I’m not going to say how far, it was too far really to be shooting. I really wanted a good test of the load and that opportunity was just the ticket. The coyote was clearly and cleanly brained. Since then further experimentation lead me to the .670” constriction which patterns better yet and is more effective with the 3” .12 gauge HD-BB load from my Benelli M1S90’s. The rebate on the Wingmaster HD shot shells is nice too and really makes the HD much more affordable than the Dead Coyote. I’m sold on the stuff. Here is the link...

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/ubb...e=0&fpart=1
 
Holly crap GC I linked to your post and have been reading for like an hour and am only 25% of the way through. Man you did some outstanding research. People had some great ideas to add.

I have a question for you. I shoot a SBE with a 28” barrel, How much does barrel length affect velocity on high density loads? I have always heard that with lead shot you need more barrel length for max velocity compared to steel shot. Makes sense to me. So an extra long barrel might be helpful with HD loads. But what is the point of diminishing returns with HD shells. It would be hard to find out but like you said in your original thread, at $400 a barrel and all the re-drilling/taping, it would hard to do the cut off 2 ins at a time velocity test. (I wish I had a chronograph).

I do think that velocity would have to be one of the keys to a long range coyote load. 1350 fps in the 3 ½ load has got to be better that the 1300 fps 3 in shell. Maybe I am up in the night to think that 70 yards is doable / ethical. What I have determined is that I need to spend some cash on more tubes and shells and find a hole crap load of phone books.


Thanks for the info!
 
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I dont think shooting a shotgun through a chronograph would be a good idea! I dont know, I guess it could be done!



You would use it just to check muzzle velocity. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
 
Shotgun pellet speed is not as important as the speed of a rifle bullet. Round pellets do not hold their speed like a bullet does. There have been many articles written in Sporting Clays Magazine about pellet speed and how fast they slow down. In one of the articles they tested many different sizes of shot at different speeds and distances. In one of the tests they did they use a load of 7-1/2's going 1200 fps and a load of 7-1/2's going 1500 fps at the muzzle. At 40 yards the pellets that were leaving the muzzle at 1500 fps were only going about 75 fps faster than the 1200 fps load. It won't be a bad thing to have a little extra speed in a predator shotgun load but I wouldn't want to give away a 1/4 or 1/2 oz of shot to get 100 fps more speed.
 
You can chronograph shotgun loads and I was going to do so on the day I did my testing but the main unit of my CED chronograph took a dump on me. Since then I ordered a new main box and am good to go now. It would be interesting to see the velocity difference between the same manufacturers’ barrels with identical chokes, just different lengths. I have a Benelli M1S90 Tactical Model with an 18 ½” barrel that accepts chokes and my Benelli M1S90 Camo Turkey Gun with 24” barrel. One day I will screw the same .670” choke tube in both and shoot the same loads through them over the screens just to see what happens. There is a 21” and then the more normal 26” and 28” barrels for M1S90’s. I’d love to have the 21” and a 26” barrels just because. That would make for a cool velocity test.

The old rule was that a shotgun burned all its powder and could basically reach maximum velocity in about 18” of barrel. That may be true with target type loads. But from what I’ve seen in print these new magnum loads will get more velocity from a longer barrel. Generally speaking longer barrels tend to be more forgiving, pattern better - if only slightly so, and probably are a little faster. I tend to think a barrel from 22” to 26” is a pretty good compromise length for all around predator calling. That leaves 24” right in the middle and once you’ve added an extended choke tube you are now around 25” - 26” overall length. Not a bad place to be…
 
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It won't be a bad thing to have a little extra speed in a predator shotgun load but I wouldn't want to give away a 1/4 or 1/2 oz of shot to get 100 fps more speed.



I agree, but the Rem HD 3 1/2 T are 50 FPS faster than the 3 inch without giving up payload. I wounder what the ballistic coefficient is on a HD T shot? I will bet that with HD loads in larger shot size, the extra speed will matter more than it does with small shot. I know that with steel, speed is important.

T shot is .20 cal I think, and a .20 cal projectile even with the poor ballistic coefficient of a round ball, still should have enough energy at 60-70 yards to penetrate a coyote. Especially if you can get 20+ hits on the coyote. Derby, what is your longest kill with the stuff, you have tons more experience with the shot gun than I or most. What do you limit your shots too?

GC do you know what BB+ is? How does it compare to a BBB? Maybe it might be the answer. Man I want to go to the range. This is more fun thinking about than the same old boring rifle ballistics.
 
The coyote hunting has been very slow this season for me. It looks like the coyotes did not have any pups this last spring. So I have not killed very many coyotes with a shotgun with the Rem HD or the Hevi-Shot DC loads. The farthest coyote I killed with 3" Rem HD BB's was about 35 yards. I did find out that the HD BB's will leave exit holes on coyotes at 30 feet. I very seldom shoot at coyotes at over 40 yards with a shotgun. They are either in good shotgun range or they are not in good shotgun range. On the 3-1/2" shells over the 3" shells a few more pellets and 50 feet more per second is not enough difference to even worry about.
 
Salem,
20+ hits IN THE VITALS is what counts. Hits in the hind end don't kill critters. I know you know this already but the rule of shot placement is just as important with shotguns as with rifles. The problem with shotguns right now isn't with the shells; it is with the chokes ability to throw a consistently tight pattern to long ranges. I believe that 8 - 10 BB or T-size shot of Wingmaster HD or Hevi-Shot Dead Coyote will kill a coyote at 70 yards. The question is how do you consistently get a pattern at that range that reliably puts those 8 - 10 pellets within an 8” circle at point of aim at 70 yards? There is the sticking point!
 
Quote:
Salem,
20+ hits IN THE VITALS is what counts. Hits in the hind end don't kill critters. I know you know this already but the rule of shot placement is just as important with shotguns as with rifles. The problem with shotguns right now isn't with the shells; it is with the chokes ability to throw a consistently tight pattern to long ranges. I believe that 8 - 10 BB or T-size shot of Wingmaster HD or Hevi-Shot Dead Coyote will kill a coyote at 70 yards. The question is how do you consistently get a pattern at that range that reliably puts those 8 - 10 pellets within an 8” circle at point of aim at 70 yards? There is the sticking point!


Good point, The goal should be to make clean kills every time. You are right, with a shot gun at the range there is way to much to chance. I guess that is why we have rifles. There is really not much reason to shoot a coyote that far with a shotgun. Also, at that range if the coyote is running, you are not going to be able to make a perfect shot.
 
This is funny, I bought a box of the HD T shot from Sportsmans cause they were out of the Dead Coyote on Saturday. I also did a test on Sunday morning and was very impressed with the results. I had about 10 pellets in a 9" circle at 60yards with my 870 supermag and dead dog choke. I can't wait to try it out. After missing a fox the other night with my 223 I decided the shotgun is the only way to go around here after dark. Mike
 
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