Personal Defence Shooting

GrizleyHunter

New member
Well here goes what may be a stupid question but I have to ask.
When in a defensive situation at close range do you point and shoot or do you always try and use the sights on the pistol.Are these two ways of shooting correct or not.
Thanks
Griz
 
Griz,

You will revert back to how you trained when faced with a life or death situation.

If you normally use sights, that's what you will do.

Firearms training now includes "Instinctive Shooting" that teaches you to point the pistol like your finger for close encounters.

If you practice that a little bit, regularly, you will be ahead of the game. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif

2 in the body, one in the head....

Barry
 
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Well here goes what may be a stupid question but I have to ask.
When in a defensive situation at close range do you point and shoot or do you always try and use the sights on the pistol.Are these two ways of shooting correct or not.
Thanks
Griz



When you are practicing weapons retention.
If the perp is close to within arms reach then they can control your weapon just as much as you if you hold it in a standard shooting postion where sites are ulilized.

A low hold near your waiste to one side using both hands will enable you to shoot someone up close while mainting control and posession of your weapon.

This is not a natural shooting position and needs to be learned and practiced to be effective. Most shooters shoot very low in this position.
 
Statistically, most gun fights happen at three to five feet and last two to four seconds. Several police agencies qualify at the range where I shoot, one of the proceedures is having an officer place his hand on the target frame and delivering leathal shots on target while holding is weapon close to body. It is not easy and can be dangerous. And most that I have watche are very good at it
 
Good info above, we teach both the weaver and Isosceles shooting methods. THE Weaver is generally thought to be a sight and time style meaning you have time to take a good sight on the target at longer distances. The Isosceles is generally used in point and shoot drills in close and may feel strange at first but with a little practice you will see its advantages. It starts with youre feet shoulder width apart with both big toes pointed directly to the target not pointed the least bit out this is very important. Squat and bend youre knees and square youre shoulders to the target. Bring the weapon to the center mass of youre body around waist level, you will need to tuck the elbow against youre waist and turn youre wrist so it is straight in front of you. push the gun forward like you are going to ram it into the target as you pull the trigger. It sounds like a lot and you have to practice it but it does work
 
griz you will get a ton of answers to this my deal is if there across the room sight if not shoot, shoot, shoot, reload.
 
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griz you will get a ton of answers to this my deal is if there across the room sight if not shoot, shoot, shoot, reload.



THEN SHOOT SOME MORE!!!

Back when I was a rookie we still caried a S&W DA revolver, I can clearly remember the words of the range master, "use the muzzel flash to see what your shooting, when the perp goes down, keep pulling the trigger till they stop jerking"
He started in LA with a 38 SPL revolver. That was the philosiphy back in the sixties. Some has carried over to now but with seventeen shot semi's it makes real good press when a perp gets shot thirty times by two cops.

You want to make your practice as real as possible, seven to ten feet is average SD range but dont neglect twelve to fifteen. 7 to 12 feet you want to be INSTINCTIVE that means you stare at somthing, draw and fire and your bullet goes into it. Try this stare at a spot on the wall, I mean really consentrate on it then as fast as you can point your finger at it. Do that a dozen times or so, you will notice that when you really consentrate your trigger finger s pointed right at the spot you were stareing at. At the range do the same thing, dry fire first a dozen times or so. Then from the holster draw, and fire one round, slowly. It takes time you will see that you hit closer and closer to the point you were stareing at.Do not use your sights. Use a one inch target paster if you need to. Try to not blow your foot off. Have fun. Remember to stay inside ten FEET any thing further you need to align sights, Draw aim and sqeeze the trigger, again SLOWLY. After several hundred rounds, you will begin to see your improvement, then you start working on speed, get a timer or a pardner with a stop watch, have the person timeing you stand behind you and rather than say draw or any thing just blow a wistle at the same time they start to atch or timer stop the time when you fire, take off points the further you are from the consentration point, That is for instinctive, and aimed fire. You will find through pratice that insinctive just don't work as well at distances over ten feet or so, and that aimed shooting is a lot slower but more accurate at disances over ten feet.
Good luck, have fun, be safe. And I hope you never have to use any of this.
 
Yeah, first figure out how to shoot normally and safely and how to properly handle your weapon, then practice from 25 yards to 2 feet. Inside about 5 yards in an actual situation, unless you're into some sort of hostage rescue shooting, you'll probably forget about the sights.
 
Alot of good advice by everyone, so here's my 2 cents. Practice, practice, practice. The distance of the encounter is going to determine whether or not you will engage the threat using sights or not. Alot of the CQB instructers are teaching both methods. IMHO use your sights as much as possible. A high percentage of law enforcement officers and military personel that have been in a shooting incident have later admitted that they didn't remember seeing the sights on their weapon before engaging the threat. Through practice their insticts took over and helped them survive the encounter. So as an answer sights first then instict/point shooting. Again just my 2 cents worth.
 
Aside from the practice (really necessary), consider that if your opponent is within 7yds, you don't want to be extending your arm to use the sights...it's too easy for him/her to gain control of it.

When you are practicing, try to keep your eyes focused on the target and bring the handgun up to your line of sight to the target.. even if the sights are not perfectly aligned, your point of impact will still be pretty much center of mass...

If there is an IDPA (International Defensive Pistol Assoc.) group within reasonable distance to you, get involved with them and go through their local matches (usually monthly).
 
I never remember seeing my sight inside of 7 yards, even during qualifications, but I can guarantee you I do. I say sight instead of sights because the front sight is all you need in CQB. Front sight trigger press, in that order. Its a good idea to practice making center mass hits on target in every position between the draw and getting the pistol onto the fighting line. I can promise you that the fighting line is my ultimate goal though because it is where I can make lethal hits on target at any distance considered to be within pistol range. I will always, at least eventually, get my pistol to the fighting line regardless of distance unless I am within arms reach or in contact with the suspect. One of the most powerful reasons for this, other than accuracy, its the only place the shooter can effectively and rapidly perform malfunction drills, speed reloads and tactical reloads. The key words being effectively and rapidly. Understand that the fighting line is not necessarily fully extended. Full extension of the arms is generally not a good fighting posture in CQC.

Its also a good idea to practice shooting from odd positions including but not limited to laying down. You may not always be on your feet during a gun fight for a variety of reasons. Also, you need to practice shooting one handed and week handed. You never know when you might take a hit in the arm or the hand disabling that limb. Practice multiple targets as well because more often than not, dirt bags travel in packs. The last piece of advice would be to stay in the fight no matter what happens. Chances are, being in a gun fight, you will probably have rounds heading your way as well. Getting hit does not mean your out of the fight. In a gun fight, plan for the worst and hope for the best. Mind set to not only survive but to WIN is the most important tool you can posses.
 
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Its also a good idea to practice shooting from odd positions including but not limited to laying down.



I had to laugh when I read that because of the number of free lunches I have won on Q-day by shooting the target bent over and shooting between my legs! Most guys think that is some sort of impossible shot and never shoot from odd positions such as this. Granted that would be a highly unusual position to be shooting at another person from. But I use it as a teaching tool on the range to prove that the basics of "front sight - trigger press" apply in whatever position you find yourself in. Even bent over with my arms extended between my legs and looking at the sights upside down - the sight picture is the same (though upside down) as is the the trigger press and mechanics of breaking an accurate shot. Head shots from ten to fifteen yards from that position can be made easy enough with good mechanics and will win ya some free lunches with the unintiated. Good points WyoSong Dog. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
 
Yo Griz,
Do you have much background with handguns? Are your questions related to your developing "practical" skills?

If you are seeking to learn practical handgunning, I suggest you find a proficient pistolero to guide you in the learning methods so that you do not "speed holster" your pistol and shoot yourself. I know of many police officers who have shot themselves while holstering.

I also suggest you train in the basics of handgunning: correct grip on the handgun, shooting stance, sight alignment, sight picture (sight alignment on the aiming point), trigger press, follow-through. Remember to learn how to simply draw the pistol correctly and to holster it, too.

I have been teaching people how to shoot for over 30 years and have corrected many who learned to shoot (before encountering me) wrongly and these people spent many hundreds of dollars(on ammunition) "fixing" these bad habits. These same people can now, on demand, draw and fire a shot in less than a second (measured with electronic shot timer) and strike a 3x5 card at interview distance and strike a full size target (IPSC target) at a full 100 yards off of a rest or prone. Quality training (and subsequent practice) will make quality results.

If you like, I will help you as much as you desire; PM me and I will answer you. I know that I do not know everything but I know a few things that may be of use to you. I carry firearms daily for work and personal protection.

If you are serious I will help you; your life may depend on your skills or lack of same.

Best wishes,

Karl in Phoenix

PS: Remeber the 4 Rules of Safe Gun Handling:
1. All guns are always loaded.
2. Never point your firearm at anything you are not willing to destroy.
3. Keep your trigger finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

I had to edit to put this in; I could not do without including the 4 Rules.
 
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Even bent over with my arms extended between my legs and looking at the sights upside down



Hhhmmmm.... sounds like the new "politcally correct" way to shoot, use your butt as a shield. Better not let that one get out or Obama will make it standard procedure for the Secret Service, FBI and the Capitol Police.
 
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. I know of many police officers who have shot themselves while holstering.




You see, now I just could not let this go. It amazes me how many people on this site need to take their little shots at Cops and the Law Enforcement profession. This cop put her magazine in backwards, this one couldnt identify a 1911 pistol, this cop was a terrible shot and on and on and on. Now MANY of us have shot ourselves while holstering?

That is the most bogus statement I have heard thus far on this site and I must raise the BS flag. Please define MANY Karl because I would love to hear this. I wonder what my friends in Pheonix might say if I call them and ask them when the last time someone in the Pheonix PD shot themselves doing anything. How about the LAPD? NYPD? Chicago? Hmmmmmmmm. I have been in the business for 20 years and I have never seen a cop shoot themselves while holstering a firearm. I wonder about the other guys on this site. GC, Augnmike, Dogboy, OldTurtle, Blinddog, TN Yoteboy and numerous others. You easily have over 100 years experience between myself and those names there. I wonder how many of those guys know MANY cops who have shot themselves while holstering. Anyone?

Has it ever happened? I guarantee it has. Have others ever had negligent discharges and shot themselves or others. Darn right it has. MANY? Please show me your MANY documented incidents because I think you are full of [beeep]. Security Consultant huh? Whats that? Wannabe maybe? Can you tell I am pissed?

I know MANY citizens who are dirtbags. I have met a few in my time. But that doesnt mean I label all citizens as dirtbags and make them look like dumba$$es every chance I get.

Sorry people. I take a little pride in what I do, and I can only listen to the BS for so long.
 
Griz, one thing to be aware of is that if you are new to handling and shooting handguns, you will be teaching yourself some new nerve/muscle motor reflex skills. Much good advice stated above, but realize that point-shooting takes way more practice than aimed shooting, and that successful point shooting requires a very thoroughly programmed connection between your eye, your brain, and the muscles and nerves of your hand and arm. Lots of reps required to get there. As you raise the pistol from the holster to firing position, this is called the 'presentation' of the pistol. This motion is what will eventually become what some call instinct, but is actually programmed learned reflex.

I would suggest starting out with aimed fire. As someone stated above, focus on the spot you want to hit, bring the pistol sights in line with your eyesight so that the sights go to that spot, then CHANGE THE FOCUS OF YOUR EYES TO THE FRONT SIGHT TOP SURFACE. Don't shoot with blurry sights, always see and focus on the top of the front sight and get as perfect a front/rear sight alignment as possible. Press the trigger gently straight rearwards without disturbing the gun, and try to make the exact moment of discharge a surprise. This will take a delay of a few seconds but with sufficient (a lot) practice can still be a surprise at only a fraction of a second. This will prevent flinching - pushing the barrel down in anticipation of recoil before the shot is fired.

This act of presentation to eyesight line helps teach your hands to bring the pistol in line with what your eye is looking at. Seeing the sights VERIFIES to your mind that the pistol is indeed aligned correctly (something you can't check in 'point' shooting). Use presentation to sight use to program your hands. Enough practice with this, and you'll not only be a good sight shooter, but your presentation will be more and more perfect as the gun comes up, requiring less correction, and eventually will be nearly perfect instantly (as verified by sight usage).

At this point, you will find you can hit at closer ranges on big targets merely by presenting the gun and looking over the top of it, since your HANDS will be providing near-perfect alignment as a trained reflex. When you get to this point, you can still hit even with the gun below your sight line but within your peripheral range of vision (i.e. mid-chest height and halfway extended). Range time will tell you what your distance/target size limitations are. As you get better and better with more sight usage practice, 'point' shooting will get better as your motor reflexes are honed.

My main point here is that by practicing point shooting first, you will have no idea where the gun is pointing until you see the hole in the target, which frankly does little or nothing to train your hand or hands to get the gun in alignment with what you are looking at, since you don't have a reference while you are pointing the gun (unless you use a laser). So, you will burn a lot of ammo with little or no feedback to make you better. Use the verification of sight picture to train your mind and hands first, then you will have something to work with for 'point' shooting up close.

Karl, sounds like you've had something to do with Col. Cooper...
 
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Hey WyoSongDog I get the feeling, that you do take pride in the profession. In over twenty years of wearing a badge every day, I never found a reason not to myself. You will find lots of bozos who either could never get hired anywhere, or haveing got the job blew it someway or other, then there are the sbirds who have no respect for law or for those who uphold it.
To answer the question though, I do not know of any officers ever shooting themselves while holstering. I do know of one instance of a ricochette off a dueling tree hitting the officer in the ankle, one negligent discharge in a locker room, and one glove related ND during a drug warrant search and arrest. At my dept. those ND's were fully investigated the officers involved were taken off duty during the investigation and they had to requalify at the range and were heavily tested over the firearms policy of the dept, and all saftey regulations. Plus they got hazed like a couple rookies for about six months. Hey you know how cops are. What some mall ninja thinks is so low on my list of things to get upset about that it is pretty close to non existant.FWIW, Security Consultant AKA Mall Ninja. I find it funny how the people who pass on disparaging information about LEO's get jobs as wanna be cops securaty consultants ect. But when the stuff hits the fan whom do they call? Then they whine. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
I have investigated two negligent discharges and am aware of three more in my area over 20 years wearing a badge here. The two I investigated both involved Glock 22 .40 S&W's and local municipal police departments. In both cases the G22's were new issue to that department. I’m not knocking the Glock, these ND’s could have happened with any handgun because the people involved had switched off their brain - the most important safety that must be working at all times when handling a firearm.

In one of those cases the department went through a three day transition training that involved classroom and range training. These guys were well trained with their new semi-auto handguns. The officer that had the negligent discharge was a good officer and one that I normally would consider a gun guy. However, he was going through a divorce and he and his wife were arguing when he came home off his shift. He was taking off his gear and was attempting to clear his G22 while his then wife yammered at him. He pulled the slide back and unchambered a round, THEN dropped the magazine, and pulled the trigger as he pointed the gun up into his ceiling... BOOM! Obviously he got the sequence off and forget what he was doing as his wife was beeaching at him. He said it sure shut her up though... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif He was returned to duty with remedial handgun safety training.

In the other incident I investigated an older officer was practicing before the first firearms Q he had to fire with his new issue G22. He was in fact reholstering the G22 and fired a round that went through the top of his right foot just about where the foot and leg joined. The wound required his foot be amputated and he retired, never returning back to duty. His training was minimal before being issued the new semi-auto. He had carried an S&W revolver for over twenty years prior to that event.

Another that I am aware of was a dispatcher and reserve officer that brought a handgun into the dispatch room to clean on midnight shift. He goofed and fired a round through the screen of his computer. This person was “let go.” He is no longer in law enforcement.

The other two ND’s are both by the same character. This guy is a salty old foul dude. As a youngster he was a gang banger in a rough part of Chicago. He got his life squared away when a judge ordered him to join the Army or go to prison. He came out of the military and became a LEO. He had on ND on duty when he dropped a sawed off double barrel shotgun that was loaded with 00 Buck. It blew a window out in the County Jail. Luckily nobody was in the room at the time. Back then, I’m not sure exactly what disciplinary action was taken with him. He remained an officer and retired after 25 years on the job with a distinguished record. However, after retirement he came on the range on a Q-day with his department. In between Q’s he went down on the range and was fiddling around with a 1911 semi-auto. Somehow he managed to shoot half his thumb off his left hand. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif
 
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