Personal Defence Shooting

I kinda figured that would be the case. Those of us that have been in the profession for any length of time have heard about or seen a Negligent Discharge. It comes with the territory.

But to make an irresponsible statement that includes the words MANY or ALOT when it comes to cops actually shooting themselves is pure and utter BS. Even when its simply a discharge that didnt hurt anyone. The vast majority of negligent discharges in law enforcement actually result in no injury whatsoever because even in their moment of stupidity, most are smart enough to have their muzzle in a direction where it can do the least amount of harm. To those that know me or at least know what I am about, I apologize for losing my temper. It just irritates me when someone runs their pie hole about something they know nothing about or misrepresents facts to make their point.

The vast majority of modern law enforcement officers are well trained, take their jobs seriously, take pride in their work and face perils and see horrors that most dont see or experience in a lifetime. Sometimes every day. Then on top of that I have to listen to people who would like to bring discredit to the profession or paint us all in a terrible light because of the actions of very few. Then we never hear people talk about us when we do something exceptional or save a life. One cop does something stupid and suddenly ALOT of us or MANY of us do.

I am off my soap box and said my piece. Sorry for the disruption.
 
Just to add a bit of fact to WyoSongDogs post, while I am retired I still take a lot of pride in my profession. Some of the things I learned and saw during my career are these. Law Enforcment makes up about 1 percent of the population as a whole, the crimminal percentage about 10%. As a proffesion, misconduct in LEO's is less than .01% compaire that with any other profession. LEO's are made up of a cross section of the population, very few go into a Law Enforcment Career, as an ambition, most come to it after failing at somthing else. 80% of rookie cops will only last five years, 90% of them will drop out due to job related stress,(things they see or experiance)the other 10% are dropped because they just don't measure up to it.
Law Enforcment as a rule, enforces a harsh code of conduct, believe it or not, misconduct is delt with swiftly and decisivly. Someone who is found to be abuseing the badge is dropped from service, and they NEVER are allowed back. Doctors and Lawyers can be found to have commited some misconduct, they may not be allowed to practice for a while but can usually get back in. Police have the Highest rates of suicide and divorce of any sub group of the public. That also goes for alcahol and drug abuse.

Getting into the training aspects, each State has differant requirements, usually set as statute, The State I worked and live in requires forty hours of firearms training at the Law Enforcment Acadamy, each department has to send recrutes to the Acadamy within a year of hire, add to that each Dept has regulations policy and procedure that covers every aspect of the job, including use of force, any deviation of policy can be a reason for termination, any use of force is investigated, any alagation of excessive force is investigated by the next higher agency, city to county county to state ect. BTW the Deffinition of use of force is anything from verbal command, to deadly use of a firearm, and everything in between. So the next time you read about some cop who got into a shooting, shot someone or zapped some body with a tazer or whatever. When it says the officer was put on "administrative leave" That is just policy, do not read anything more into it. That means the officer will be ran over the coals for a week or three usually with pay but somtimes not depending on the location and the politics involved. Even when cleared the officer will be walking on eggshells for a while and usually have to go through counseling sessions possibly remedial training, review of use of force, and all the rest of the BS that goes along with the job.
Oh yes speaking of pay, did you all know that a police officer in most plces in the US is required to have as much education as a teacher? They almost always make a lot less as well. And going back to training, cops are required to get many hours of continuing education each year. Most dept's require requlifacation with firearms every three months. Failure to requalify usually will be grounds for termination. Even if you miss range day due to court! you miss it you have to make arangements to get with a range master who will requalify you on your time. My dept gave one week to do so, before termination. It happened to me once I was tied up in court and missed both days to requalify. I had to pay one of the range officers to come down on his day off to requalify me, on my day off.
Like I said people who disparage police usually are the first to whine when the stuff hits the fan. And it usually hits it due to thier own big mouths.
 
Regardless of my previous post on practice or others misconception on law enforcement one thing remains true. We never know what is going to happen when the s**t the fan but being un prepaired will almost alway have the same results and they will not be in youre favor. Being prepared requires work, you dont just pull youre six gun and blaze down the bad guys except in youre dreams superman. Shooting is a lot like golf, tennis horseshoes ect. its muscle memory to a point. When you are put into a bad situation you have two choices, freeze or you mind will take over without you even thinking about it, this is called muscle memory. Which one are you going to be ? For the complainers next time you need law enforcement to bail youre [beeep] out try calling the human society and reporting it.

GOD BLESS THOSE WHO SERVE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Well said SongDog as always... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif

Along the lines of what GC said, I know of 4 cases in 23 years. Two on duty accidental discharges, two off duty, both off duty incidents resulted in injury.

But cops handle firearms many times a day for one reason or another. Things do happen.

But alot or many do not come to mind..
 
To WyoSongDog and blinddog:

I concede that my use of the word "many" may have been less than precise and too strong a word but "several" is too weak.

My exampled use of law enforcement officers (LEOs) for the hazzards involved with holstering handguns is to demonstrate that highly trained professionals in the LEO community have "accidents", too.

Typically, LEOs professionally daily handle loaded guns more than most other non-military people. Therefore, statistically, a greater number of accidental discharges/negligent discharges (ad/nd) incidents will be documented. I would wager that ad/nd events where no injuries result, escape any newsprint documentation.

As requested, here are some examples of ad/nd from my files:

April 23, 2008
Headline: Fla. Cop accidentally shoots self. "He was putting his gun back in the holster and accidentally shot himself in the hip".

May 12, 2008
A Cape Breton Regional Police officer is expected to make a full recovery after accidentally shooting himself in the leg during a drug raid. Const. Bradley Burke, 41, a 20-year veteran of the RCMP "...gun...may have been in its holster when it discharged".

November 7, 2006
On November 2, 2006, around 1835 hours, Officer Mario Jacinto, assigned to the Northeast Area was inside the police station (LAPD) when he noticed his holster was unsnapped. As Jacinto attempted to re-snap his holster his gun fired, shooting one round into the floor.

August 25, 2006
Headline Accidental Discharges Vex LAPD
Since 1985, there have been 350 ADs by LAPD officers.

December 8, 2006
A Sedgwick County Detective accidentally shot himself while trying-on a holster. Investigators say the officer's finger must have been on the trigger (Glock pistol).

June 16, 2006
Police investigate cop's accidental gun discharge. LAPD. During a foot pursuit of a suspect, Officer William Martin, 29, while holstering his pistol caused it to fire and the bullet struck the sidewalk.

ADs can also be caused by faulty/defective holsters:

Fobus recalled approximately 3,200 GLT holsters for Glock M17/M19 pistols that are designed for fitted laser/light units mounted on accessory rail because retention strap could slip into trigger guard to fire pistol as pistol is pressed into holster.

Michael's of Oregon recalled about 8,000 holsters for similar reason with thumb-break models. These holsters were sold through Uncle Mike's Law Enforcement Catalogs.

I did not select you (WyoSongDog & blinddog) for personal insults or attacks or to impugn your character or reputations. I do not know you and would not insult your person(s).

While many of your comments on this Forum show a great breadth of knowledge and experience, your comments about my person and business show a specific ignorance on your part, as would be expected by someone unfamiliar with me or my business.

Just to edify you: I have seen my share of gore while serving in the US Army (1st Ranger Battalion), during years as a fire/arson investigator (aiding in several criminal prosecutions) and while working in the private security industry. I have had my share of death threats from gang bangers and provided first responder aid to broken people and have saved several lives. I know these things first-hand. My staff (and me) have cleared one Phoenix community (+1,200 residents) of more than a dozen crack houses run by gang bangers (in the past 12 months).
I hire "professionals" in my security business and pay professional salaries ($40-$55K +). All of my employees have a military background. I hire former LEOs, as long as they have a military background. None of my staff are what you so glibbly describe as "mall ninja". All of my employees receive more than 50 hours of handgun training per year, in addition to quarterly qualifications. I pay for them to be at the range and I pay for the thousands of dollars for ammunition. Weapon safety and proficiency are very important to me. As you know, such proficiency is very important when you are on the street. Professional attitude is enhanced by knowledge and proven capabilities.

In closing, I have the utmost respect for those LEOs who daily put themselves at risk for the safety of the communities they serve.

So, if my use of the word "many" caused you to become upset, I will seek to be more sensitive in the future with my word choice.

Respectfully,

Karl in Phoenix
 
Yep with over a million uniformed LEO's working 24/7/365 I guess if you look you could find several stories of AD/ND especially over a three or four year period. LAPD and NYPD being the largest Depts. in the country by law of average several will be from one or the other. Holster manufactures recalling product, even several thousand is not an indicator that any thing acctually happened with that product, just that there was a possibility that somthing could have. WyoSongDogs objection, and to some extent mine was because it seems every time somthing like that hits the news it get repeated time after time and is used by the small minority of cop haters to disparage LEO's
My mall ninja comment was due to several incedents I have had over the years, with people with minimal or no training, trying to tell me how I should handle an investigation, how I should interpret the law, and usually walking all over and contaminateing a crime scene in the process. They also tend to come on boards like this one and pose like they acctually know somthing, or have experiance when all they do is strut around the mall trying to impress the girls and mooch cookies.
 
blinddog,
The holster recalls were caused by ADs with these products. Agressive holstering (speed holstering) permits any debris (snaps, cords, loose belts) to fire the pistol if that debris gets in the trigger guard while pressing pistol into holster.

I have seen this happen at a couple of IDPA events with people who were wearing those belt-pack thingies with loose straps and things.

Me and my employees often back up Phoenix PD at that community I mentioned (above), when PD resourses are scarce.

Thanks for reading my comment.

Karl in Phoenix
 
Sort of along the same lines, I see the word "military" brought up often as a way of boosting the pedigree of some for their gun handling and marksmanship abilities. Now, please don't take this as a derogatory attack on military guys. I appreciate their service and have the highest respect for most of them. What I am about to say applies equally to LEO.

No doubt some units in the military are highly trained, among the best in the world - hopefully in the case of the U.S. Military the very best in the world - with firearms and tactics. Most aren't Navy SEALS or whatever and are still very well trained and competent with firearms and tactics. But there are a lot of troops that get very minimal training, especially with a handgun, and aren't any better than the average Joe down at the public range. There was a local boy that was killed recently as he sat in Iraq with his squad on some downtime. One of the other guys was jacking around with his rifle, thought he had it cleared of ammo, then pointed it at this local boy and aimed at his head as he pulled the trigger. There was still a round chambered and of course he killed this kid from rural Missouri. Absolutely no excuse for this to happen. We have a local National Guard unit in this county and many of them are actually banned from our local gun range because they are unsafe knuckleheads. I've trained many ex-military guys that become law enforcement officers, some were absolutely excellent and a pleasure to have in class and on the range. Others were pea brains that had no business with a firearm. I don't assume a guy is a whiz bang with tactics or firearms just because he was in the military. Nor do I if he tells me he graduated from the LE Acadamy. Proof is in the pudding as they say... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
 
Karl I grew up in Phoenix so i have a pretty good idea of the 'communities" your company services. When I was a kid Phoenix was only a few hundred thousand, it was well over a million and a half when I left thirty years ago.
Phoenix PD are some of the best in the nation, but that sort of goes for most of AZ LEOs since the training is all the same, and controled by statute. These statutes even cover "private securaty companies" to a point.
The Communities I think you were refering to are pretty much city owned and managed, to the need for search warrants and other things regarding the fourth amendment, are not so ridgid when "busting crack houses" right?
 
Hi blinddog,
Yes, Phoenix is a big place now. The community I service is an HOA with about 1,200 residents and is about 30 years old. It has some Section 8 and some owner residents but mostly is rental property. Since it is "private property", we security people have more say in what goes on, on the whole property, as we represent the property owners. The Constitution is still in play and we respect all laws in the ARS. We are successful because we are nice and respectful of the "good" residents and have gained their confidence. While we are not on duty 24/7 (private funding by HOA dues) we are on duty 10 to 20 hours per day.

When we started in May 2007, Phoenix PD would not respond to 911 calls without at least 3 2-officer cars to answer the call. Of course, that took some time to stage such a response. Now, for "domestic" calls, a single female officer feels confident to drive onto the property. Some change!

We typically tactically clear vacant townhomes when we see that doors have been kicked-in or windows broken (sometimes on a daily basis with guns in hand), often to find some "unauthorized" person in the home(arrests made). My agents have X26 Tasers and all the other important personal tactical gear (including 4 spare magazines on their duty belts). We work in 2-man teams and everyone is well trained in use of force continuum--same Use of Force as Maricopa County S.O.

When we started at this property 14 months ago, mothers would not let their children out of the house (fear of robbery) and there were gunshots and muggings daily. Now, children are all over the place and people wave their hands and smile when my security guys pass by, on foot or vehicle patrol. It is a good community in which to live, now.

The last of the "serious" gang bangers brought in some East L.A. "talent" to kill-off the security elements that were bad for the drug business. My partner that day(former Army Special Forces and recent security contractor in Iraq--2 tours) and me took care of the "hitters" with no shots fired. The day before, these "hitters" were shooting-up the neighborhood (we were not on duty just yet). This took place about six months ago.

We provide intel and recon for Phoenix PD and other LEO to make busts and warrent arrests.

Now, it is mostly "maintenence" to keep the lawless element off the property. My client is obviously happy.

The real key to success is not my security guys, it is that the community members finally felt safe enough to come forward and share intel so we could get inside the OODA loop and short circuit the bad guys. My security guys only provide the safety net to give confidence to the residents. We are obviously not some "cowboy" outfit.

Thanks for your interest, blinddog.

Respectfully,

Karl in Phoenix
 
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