Powder Choice

B

Butthead

New member
I am doing some load developement and am struggling with powder choices. I understand that powders burn at different rates, can be heat sensitive, and some burn cleaner then others. With that said there are still many similar choices and to try every powder with every bullet seated at different lenghts is just impossible.

So how do you choose your powder? I know some like to look at fill. Do you think there is a difference in two powders, say both at 90% fill, and both pushing the same bullet at the same speed. Will they have the same accuracy or will some guns just like one powder more then another?
 
There is definitly a difference between two powders. There is even a difference between lot#s of the same powder.

Some of the older powders like BL-C2 and H322 are noticably different than they were years ago. IMHO

This is why if you work up a load with a powder that is near max, you should decrease it by 5% when you start another lot# of the same powder.

Yes, some guns prefer one powder over another.

It's what makes this game so much fun.
 
Originally Posted By: ButtheadI am doing some load developement and am struggling with powder choices. I understand that powders burn at different rates, can be heat sensitive, and some burn cleaner then others. With that said there are still many similar choices and to try every powder with every bullet seated at different lenghts is just impossible.

So how do you choose your powder? I know some like to look at fill. Do you think there is a difference in two powders, say both at 90% fill, and both pushing the same bullet at the same speed. Will they have the same accuracy or will some guns just like one powder more then another?


You can still buy bullets, and powder in Cali? LOL!

What specificaly are you working a load up for? Your question is very broad. I would look for different things, in powder for example, when loading a .223 Rem Vs. a 7mm Magnum.
 
I am currently working on two different loads for the same rifle. It is a 24" heavy barreled .223 with a 1 in 8 twist. Looking for a varmint load, lighter high speed load with maybe a V-Max or Varmint grenade and a heavy weight paper puncher maybe an A-Max or SMK. I have started loading various bullets using Varget. I have a variety of powders and dont mind buying a few more but just trying to understand the how and why of choosing the right one.
 
A few things I consider; What do the reload manuals suggest work good, what kind of case fill (load density),and velocity potential, also, how much carbon crud is deposited in the bolt carrier/barrel.
 
For me I have learned to just start with Hodgdon. I have gotten better volocities with other powder but Hodgdon have worked out the best in overall accuracy, cleanliness and and consistancy.

Most my shooting is lower level target shooting at local matches and F class in the summers. But being in Minnesota I can be shooting in 5 degrees or 95 degrees and Hodgdon has taken the headache out of changing loads according to what the weatherman says.

Im shooting 69g SMK from an AR with 25.5g Varget with great results, at magazine length the load is slightly compressed but that gives me some sort of warm feeling that I like and it always works.
 
Originally Posted By: ButtheadI am currently working on two different loads for the same rifle. It is a 24" heavy barreled .223 with a 1 in 8 twist. Looking for a varmint load, lighter high speed load with maybe a V-Max or Varmint grenade and a heavy weight paper puncher maybe an A-Max or SMK. I have started loading various bullets using Varget. I have a variety of powders and dont mind buying a few more but just trying to understand the how and why of choosing the right one.



The water is clearing just a bit... What powders other than Varget have you tried, or have on hand?

What bullet weights have you used on the heavy end?

Please be more specific in what you have used, and what you want to achieve.

Then you have to decide if you like ball powder [blc2, H-335, Tac etc...], or extruded [Imr-4895, Imr-8208, Varget etc...] Really it comes to experience, and preference. IMO.

I like extruded powders my self, They dont "throw" as well out of a powder measure as ball powders, but they are, for the most part cleaner burning.

There is no one do all powder. Every gun is different as far as what it likes to eat. This is part of the fun, or recreational part of reloading.

With a fast twist 223, bullets from 40gr to 80gr can be used, and require different loads entirely.

I use for example, Imr- 8208Xbr for lighter bullet weights in the 223, and Imr-4007 with 75gr BTHP's in a -9 twist Remmy.
 
Thanks all,

Smokeless it is a brand new rifle and I have only tried factory loads so far. The rifle didn't really preform all that well with any of the loads I tried. It did seem to favor heavier bullets but still not all that great. 5 shot groups ranged from 1.1" to 1.5". I am trying to get to about .5" @ 100. That is probably as well as I am going to shoot at this time.

I have bought 68BTHP, 75BTHP, 80A-Max, 77SMK, 80SMK for testing in the 'heavies', and 36VG,50VG, 40-50-55V-Max for varmint rounds.

Right now all I have is Varget, R15 and Superformance. I have no issues picking up other powders for testing, just wasn't sure where to start and that is what I had. I used Varget as many people said it is their goto powder for accuracy (usually with SMK's).

This is much harder then finding a load for my .50 was. I only had a couple of bullet and powder choices so it really wasn't all that hard. Reloading for my 1911 was easy, first combination I tried was great.

I am weighing each charge so I dont really care wether ball or extruded.

So far I have started by making 5o rounds for a given bullet. I start at min. and make 5 rounds of each different weight till I hit max. Ussually in .2 to .5 increments. Smaller increments near the max charges. I am seating at reccomended OAL.

Yesterday I weighed an entire box of 68BTHP and seperated into .1 groups. I will use similar bullet weights for each 5 round test group.

Still trying to get my noodle around the fact that two bullets leaving the barrel at exactly the same speed care what kind of powder pushed them out. My brain doesn't think it should matter. I know it does so I am just trying to retrain my brain (not easy at my age).
 
I may step on some toes, but here goes...

Put away the Varget in .223-5.56x45. In my testing it's slow 200fps slow, and dirty with the light stuff, and the only loads that were accurate with the heavy's was the starting loads (slow again). You might as well shoot a .222.

As far as a do it all powder for the .223 try H4895 or IMR-4895 as they will work with 40-80 grain bullets, good velocity, and burn clean too. Works great with the 55 grain bullets. Another good, do it all powder is Benchmark which gives even higher velocity.

For an example, a 40 grain bullet maxed out with Varget is running 3380 fps. While the same 40 grain with Benchmark, N133, N120, AA2015 will run 3800+ fps.

RL15 or H4895 for the heavies (77-80).
 
What type of rifle is it? Have you shot any reloads yet, or just factory stuff? The factory stuff wont shoot as well as reloads, generally.

The group range your in [1-1.5"] might be as far as you get without free floating the barrel, and possibly bedding in the action. Also new barrels will break in and shoot better after 1-200 shots fired. Make sure your action screws are torqued.

You should be able to make some good loads with what you have on hand, but if not, I would try IMR-4895. It is a old stand by of mine, and I haven't seen a small bore not shoot that powder well.

Keep us posted on progress! Good luck.

I'm working up some 60gr V-max loads for the 223 right now. So I'm off to the range.
 
Originally Posted By: Butthead

Still trying to get my noodle around the fact that two bullets leaving the barrel at exactly the same speed care what kind of powder pushed them out. My brain doesn't think it should matter. I know it does so I am just trying to retrain my brain (not easy at my age).






Different powders create different pressure curves, that in turn create different harmonics in your barrel. So while two different powders push a given bullet at the same speed, the harmonics are different, and don't react in your barrel the same. There is a whole lot more to it than that, but that's the short of it.
 
I would start your bullets seated about .010 into the lands of your rifle. That way you start with pressure signs instead of finding the load you like and tweaking the seating depth to perfection and running into pressure signs.

Varget is a good "go-to" for 223 and as ninehorse brought up H4895 or IMR-4895 are the other most comon. I havent run into velocity problems with varget im pushing 69gr to 2975 fps with single didget ES in an AR with a 24" thats pretty good.

I have been on AccurateShooter.com forums for a couple years and i really have to say it seems like 60%+ are using varget in their 223 and maybe half those run 69 SMKs. A 4895 is the other most comon.


Oh and seems like superformance should be a last resort. Ive been watching it closely and it sounds pretty poor, with a tiny possible advantage really only in the middle caliber short magnums.
 
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Now that's a tikka I could get my head around.

Load development is difficult at times. I have, from time to time, "stumbled" upon a great load. Example...

I was setting up to load for my Wife's. Brand new 7-08 ADL. She wanted to shoot it and I had yet to play with it. So I looked in the book and found a middle of the road load with some 140 gr Sierras and RE15. I set the powder meter up and loaded 20 rounds. They were 1 gr below max, and I checked every 5 rnds for charge weight. Well, we sighted it in in 4 rnds, then proceeded to put 5 rnds in 3/4". I know had a great start point. I tweaked the charge and seated the bullet out a hair and had a 1/2" and less load that easy.

OP I think you are over doing it. Decide on a bullet or two you want it to shoot. Pretty much any of the bullets out today, except "bulk" ones, will shoot well provided the twist rate will handle the round. Brass, primers, and the actual bullet it's self are a hair less pivotal, to me. I don't buy into the "bulk" stuff.

Case prep, seating depth (and consistancy there of), powder charge are usually more make or break for me. Like I said, figure what bullet you want and make it shoot. I think you are overwhelming yourself with 10 different bullets and what not. Just a suggestion.
 
I headed to the range today to try the loads I had so far. I started with some 80g A-max, terrible. None of the loads grouped well. I move on to some 68g BTHP. They were shooting much better but the loads were 3/4" plus and none of the seemed to be the right one. I had a few 50g varmint grenades loaded and all 3 groups I shot were sub MOA. I think with some tweaking they will be exceptional. I was running out of time but had some 75g BTHP loaded and decided to shoot a few groups. I glad I did because they were the best groups of the day. Several of the groups were dime sized and thats really about as good as I can shoot. I plan to pickup some 4895 and see if I can push these loads a little faster but I was pleased with the results so far.

Thanks guys for all of your input.Here are a few pics:

IMG_1410.jpg


IMG_1411.jpg
 
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