I have recently started loading for the 6.8 spc cartridge and the run out on the loaded cartridges is worse than what I am used to. In the past I have used exclusively Lapua brass for reloading but so far Lapua is not available for the 6.8 and am having to use SSA and Hornady brass. Typicaly with Lapua my reloads have been in the .000 to .002 runout and occasionally a .003 will sneak by but with the cheaper brass my hornady run out gauge shows .003 to .005. I am using the cheap RCBS standard die and I figure the cheaper brass and cheaper die are the problem. Before I pay $60 to $250 for expensive dies I thought I would ask the experts. I have never used bushing dies and would prefer not to. I have also considered neck turning the brass but after researching on these forums it seems neck turning is not going to help. So if the die is probably the culprit which die would be the best to help and is there possibly another solution I am overlooking.
Problems with runout or concentricity
- Thread starter igor
- Start date
The brass is a major issue but you are overlooking the seater die. The generic Hornady seater works better for run out for me vs. a standard RCBS type. I use bushings on 90% of mine plus the chamber type like Hornady or Redding. I'd try one of those if you are not using one now.
Greg
Greg
spotstalkshoot
Well-known member
Mark some brass so you can run it back through the die(180)and see if the run out direction changes. Can also check if shell holder is the problem by rotating it.
I'd measure runout at each step.
take a fired case, measure the runout on the neck before resizing & again after. If that indicates too much runout, you need a better sizing die. If it doesn't, seat a bullet & check runout on the neck & on the bullet, see if the seating die is the problem.
take a fired case, measure the runout on the neck before resizing & again after. If that indicates too much runout, you need a better sizing die. If it doesn't, seat a bullet & check runout on the neck & on the bullet, see if the seating die is the problem.
I assume I will need some sort of specialty gauge to check run out on a fired case. I don't see a way to check a fired case or a sized case with my Hornady run out gauge. What do you recommend. I also think the two #19 RCBS shell holders I have could be better. I have two and they both don't seem to let the cartridge settle as flat as other shell holders and cartridges I have. I dont mind spending a little more money for dies and such on this but would like to avoid wasting any. The Hornady seater die looks good. I spent the cash for a Trijicon IR Defense MK2 for a scope so a few more dollars is worth it to get the most out of this cartridge. I'm getting 4 shot groups averaging 1.25 and most of my rifles do better.
204 AR
Well-known member
I have a RCBS case master? I think it's called? It does what I need afa measuring run out on cases and loaded rounds. IMO most runout happens during resizing. Some resizing dies just never produce straight cases. The worst I've ever had was a RCBS 204 fl sizer. Simply wouldn't make a straight case. I tried with decapping rod tight, loose, and gone altogether. Took them back and got Redding, then I had straight cases.
I've experimented quite a bit and some times with some dies having the expander button backed into the die closer to the top has helped some.
Then keep in mind if the necks are thicker on one side runout won't be good.
I've experimented quite a bit and some times with some dies having the expander button backed into the die closer to the top has helped some.
Then keep in mind if the necks are thicker on one side runout won't be good.
Quote: I've experimented quite a bit and some times with some dies having the expander button backed into the die closer to the top has helped some.
Then keep in mind if the necks are thicker on one side runout won't be good.
^^^^this
Spent a lot of time/effort minimizing runout for long range ammo. IMO doesn't make enough difference to worry about out to 200...maybe 300 yards.
The expander plug in sizing die will tend to pull the case sideways a bit as it is extracted due to the fact that most shell holders only support case 180*. A carbide expander set as close to the top as possible helps. A bit of graphite inside case neck also helps reduce friction as expander pulled out of neck.
Before they made, or at least before I ever heard of bushing dies, I contacted RCBS and had them ream out a well worn RCBS 30-06 sizer to proper diameter for (neck turned)cases in my rifle allowing me to remove expander plug altogether.
They requested two or three cases fired in my rifle and I sent them along with my die. Couple of weeks later I received the die @ no charge. GREAT customer service.
After RCBS tuneup, most cases measured
Then keep in mind if the necks are thicker on one side runout won't be good.
^^^^this
Spent a lot of time/effort minimizing runout for long range ammo. IMO doesn't make enough difference to worry about out to 200...maybe 300 yards.
The expander plug in sizing die will tend to pull the case sideways a bit as it is extracted due to the fact that most shell holders only support case 180*. A carbide expander set as close to the top as possible helps. A bit of graphite inside case neck also helps reduce friction as expander pulled out of neck.
Before they made, or at least before I ever heard of bushing dies, I contacted RCBS and had them ream out a well worn RCBS 30-06 sizer to proper diameter for (neck turned)cases in my rifle allowing me to remove expander plug altogether.
They requested two or three cases fired in my rifle and I sent them along with my die. Couple of weeks later I received the die @ no charge. GREAT customer service.
After RCBS tuneup, most cases measured
I was just starting reloading for my 30-06. this is a rem 700 that had long been established to shoot 1 MOA with remington factory ammo.
imagine my disgust when I couldn't get a handload to group under 3" at 100 yards. That's when I bought the case master.
I had bought a set of Lee dies. They delivered an ungodly amount of runout. Been so long now I don't recall exactlty but it was 15 thousands or some horrible number. I bought a set of redding dies, got very small runout & sub-MOA groups. Threw the damned Lee dies in the trash & never looked back.
my only regret was that I didn't buy the tool sooner, as I has gone through a lot of bullets & powder trying to find a load that worked, when all along it was the dies.
imagine my disgust when I couldn't get a handload to group under 3" at 100 yards. That's when I bought the case master.
I had bought a set of Lee dies. They delivered an ungodly amount of runout. Been so long now I don't recall exactlty but it was 15 thousands or some horrible number. I bought a set of redding dies, got very small runout & sub-MOA groups. Threw the damned Lee dies in the trash & never looked back.
my only regret was that I didn't buy the tool sooner, as I has gone through a lot of bullets & powder trying to find a load that worked, when all along it was the dies.
Rock Knocker
Well-known member
Does anyone else here rotate their cases as they are seating a bullet? I will almost tap a bullet in as I'm rotating it.
I've never run my ammo over a concentricity gauge but I have always been able to find the groups I want, or better. I have been rotating my cases from the beginning then I read an article on AccurateShooter where a guy was running his ammo over every gauge a reloader could get their hands on comparing cases that he just pressed the bullet in and when he rotated the cases and seating the bullet in steps, he was getting much better concentricity when rotating.
I've never run my ammo over a concentricity gauge but I have always been able to find the groups I want, or better. I have been rotating my cases from the beginning then I read an article on AccurateShooter where a guy was running his ammo over every gauge a reloader could get their hands on comparing cases that he just pressed the bullet in and when he rotated the cases and seating the bullet in steps, he was getting much better concentricity when rotating.
spotstalkshoot
Well-known member
Yes I partially seat, 1/4-1/2 twist, finish seating. Have done that from first round from first press. Started with the Lee mallet dies. I think I will order the rcbs concentricity tool.
biggen0_8
New member
Lots of good advice here. I have had both ,sizing dies and seating dies that seem inherently straight and some crooked. Sometimes you can play with indexing the dies slightly and get some help, some guys like to use a rubber o-ring under the lock ring similar to Lee dies. (never worked too well for me.)
Sometimes I have had luck with rotating the bullet while seating, sometimes it hasn't helped at all.
The one thing that I do find to be important,is that you get the bullet initially set in the top of the case as straight as possible. Don't count on the seating die to straighten it out for you.
Also when you set up you seating die, start by running a piece of sized, trimmed piece of brass up into the seating die and adjust the die down until the crimping ring of the die just touches the brass, then back the die out about 1/4 turn.
If you have a loaded round you can run it up into the die and use it to help center the die in the threads of the press before you tighten down the lock ring.
If you go to www.accurateshooter.com and do a search for "runout" you will get a bunch of articles dealing with the subject.
Sometimes I have had luck with rotating the bullet while seating, sometimes it hasn't helped at all.
The one thing that I do find to be important,is that you get the bullet initially set in the top of the case as straight as possible. Don't count on the seating die to straighten it out for you.
Also when you set up you seating die, start by running a piece of sized, trimmed piece of brass up into the seating die and adjust the die down until the crimping ring of the die just touches the brass, then back the die out about 1/4 turn.
If you have a loaded round you can run it up into the die and use it to help center the die in the threads of the press before you tighten down the lock ring.
If you go to www.accurateshooter.com and do a search for "runout" you will get a bunch of articles dealing with the subject.
with my lee dies, the problem was the resizer. The case neck was out true after resizing. Once the neck was off, I don't think the rest mattered much.
after that experience it became one of mys steps when setting up a new set of dies. Get shoulder set back to speck -or neck size, whichever the die is for- and then check the runout. I've never had to replace another die, any brand. Odds are if I'd had Lee replace it, I prolly would have been fine, but I just said screw it, tossed the set & bought a Redding set, since I already had some of those and liked them.
after that experience it became one of mys steps when setting up a new set of dies. Get shoulder set back to speck -or neck size, whichever the die is for- and then check the runout. I've never had to replace another die, any brand. Odds are if I'd had Lee replace it, I prolly would have been fine, but I just said screw it, tossed the set & bought a Redding set, since I already had some of those and liked them.
biggen0_8
New member
Originally Posted By: Stu Farishwith my lee dies, the problem was the resizer. The case neck was out true after resizing. Once the neck was off, I don't think the rest mattered much.
+1 ^^^^^^ if the sizing die is screwed up, your done.
But, and I don't mean to hi-jack the thread, what is the consensus on "straightening" rounds with runout, such as the Hornaday rig is capable of?
Is a round that is "pushed" back into 0 runout as good as one that is born that way?
BTW I don't believe that most (maybe any) factory gun is really capable of showing the difference.
Also if your running a load with the bullet pushed into the lands, then how much does that negate the effect from runout?
Just some thoughts.
+1 ^^^^^^ if the sizing die is screwed up, your done.
But, and I don't mean to hi-jack the thread, what is the consensus on "straightening" rounds with runout, such as the Hornaday rig is capable of?
Is a round that is "pushed" back into 0 runout as good as one that is born that way?
BTW I don't believe that most (maybe any) factory gun is really capable of showing the difference.
Also if your running a load with the bullet pushed into the lands, then how much does that negate the effect from runout?
Just some thoughts.
Well youall helped trim a .001 run out off the last 20 rounds. For the last 20 years I have rotated the round twice as I seated. After reading all these great posts I rotated the 20 rounds 3 times and darn if the last 20 didn't average .oo2 instead of .003 runout. Not good enough but better. May be a fluke but I will be rotating more and a set of 6.8 Redding dies will soon be on the way. Wish Lapua would get with the program. Thanks for all the response!
Hm1996 and others made some really great points, I would like to expound on some.
Lube the necks, this decreases drag as the expander ball comes through the neck which eliminates a lot of case neck mis alignment, and also may uniform bullet grip
Forster case graphiter, about $15
For guys that do not want to use bushing dies, the forster(Bonanza) dies have the expander ball on the de capping rod designed so that the expander ball comes through the neck while the neck is still being supported by the die. This eliminates a lot of mis alignment, I can not stress this enough.
Forster dies are very advanced dies in how they are designed, and their std. neck sizers can be used to bump shoulders, no other brand of dies offer this feature. Forster will hone out a neck dia for $12.
So, for a guy that wants to make super accurate ammo without neck turning and going to bushing dies, then you should ONLY consider Forster dies....period! Best money you can spend. I have expensive contraptions to check run out, and have seen this die issue crop it's head up time and time again. The Forster issue of having the expander ball being pulled throw while it is still be supported by the neck portion of the die is HUGE in eliminating run out...I can not stress this enough. If you also lube the case neck, with the graphiter, that eliminates more run out, and annealing the necks also helps.
Also, a seating die is NOT going to straighten out a dog leg crooked neck! Forget that!
Controlling the run out at the sizing stage is where you want to focus first. If you have an indicator, check the run out on the case neck after it is sized....your head will explode if you are sizing and feel the expander ball coming though the neck hard on std dies.
Forster dies rule when it comes to controlling run out on sized cases, neck and full length sizing.
Educate yourself on how forster dies are set up differently than std dies with an expander ball. Then buy a cheap case graphiter, and anneal your brass with a propane torch and pan of water every 5th or so firing. None of this is even close to being rocket science.
Lube the necks, this decreases drag as the expander ball comes through the neck which eliminates a lot of case neck mis alignment, and also may uniform bullet grip
Forster case graphiter, about $15
For guys that do not want to use bushing dies, the forster(Bonanza) dies have the expander ball on the de capping rod designed so that the expander ball comes through the neck while the neck is still being supported by the die. This eliminates a lot of mis alignment, I can not stress this enough.
Forster dies are very advanced dies in how they are designed, and their std. neck sizers can be used to bump shoulders, no other brand of dies offer this feature. Forster will hone out a neck dia for $12.
So, for a guy that wants to make super accurate ammo without neck turning and going to bushing dies, then you should ONLY consider Forster dies....period! Best money you can spend. I have expensive contraptions to check run out, and have seen this die issue crop it's head up time and time again. The Forster issue of having the expander ball being pulled throw while it is still be supported by the neck portion of the die is HUGE in eliminating run out...I can not stress this enough. If you also lube the case neck, with the graphiter, that eliminates more run out, and annealing the necks also helps.
Also, a seating die is NOT going to straighten out a dog leg crooked neck! Forget that!
Controlling the run out at the sizing stage is where you want to focus first. If you have an indicator, check the run out on the case neck after it is sized....your head will explode if you are sizing and feel the expander ball coming though the neck hard on std dies.
Forster dies rule when it comes to controlling run out on sized cases, neck and full length sizing.
Educate yourself on how forster dies are set up differently than std dies with an expander ball. Then buy a cheap case graphiter, and anneal your brass with a propane torch and pan of water every 5th or so firing. None of this is even close to being rocket science.