Questions for 223 AI users

gethuntin

gethuntin

Member
well i really ant make my mind up between the 22250 and the 223
main differences that i cant decide on are the cheapness of brass for the 223 and less powder.
But the 22250 i want for flatness and knckdown on yotes. But i hunt prairie dogs too.

So i am thinking to get a 223 ackley made. I see that benchmark can get the 223 up from old standards of the 223 and with AI i thought the gap between the 2 would be close enough.

So i was wondering what would be a good twists for a 223 ackley for 50 and 55 gr bulllets i read somewhere 1in 12 will be te fastest. and what speeds to expect. i mean the main reason i want to do this is speed.
And i i would liket o hear opinions if this would be a good compromise to try to close te gap.
 
Last edited:
Ok, I am far from an expert on the matter, but I can relate to you my experiences so far. It is an 1-8" twist. I've shot from the the 40Vmax's to the 75Amax's with great accuracy results in the 22" barrel. I've been shooting it for just about a year and a half or so, with just over 2000 rounds through it.

I had a fast twist 22-250 before I got my 223AI and prefer the 223AI. While the 223AI won't quite put out the speeds of a 22-250, it will get you close and do it with less recoil, less powder, greater barrel life, longer strings of fire before heating up, cheap brass (relatively speaking), you don't need a yard of barrel out front to get good velocities. Alot of people get turned off when they here the work "Ackley" and "fireforming", but there is really nothing to it. Just load and shoot, it's only as complicated as you make it, and I'm suprised at some of the things people do to make it complicated.


A 1-12" twist would shoot 50's and 55's, but I just couldn't/wouldn't hamstring myself with the slow twists ever again, it just limits you (bullet wise) way too much for my tastes. A 1-8" will shoot the 50's great. My FF load consists of 27.5gr of 335 under a 50Vmax and it shoots 1/2" groups very consistently. I've shot quite a few woodchucks with just my FF load, there is no reason to just blast away to form brass...they'll be everybit as accurate as loads in formed cases, just a wee bit slower. The fast twist opens alot of doors with the rifle and gives you the option of shooting 75A-max's, and other high bc bullets. Just shooting targets, the 223AI has no problem all the way out to the 1000yard line if you feed it the right bullet.

Some guys have feeding problems with the steep shouldered cases, but I haven't really ran into that with mine.

As far as speeds, I've ran the 75's as fast as 3100+ (my fast twist 22-250 would get 3300 with the 75's) but I found a happy medium running them right at 3000. I ran the 50's up to 3750 but that load is warm in the heat of summer, at least it is in my rifle, and I wouldn't use it in a prarie dog town in the summertime heat. I backed the 50's down to around 3650 and that load was easier on the brass. When I shot the 40V-max's, they were running at 3900+ and accuracy was good, even in my 1-8" tw.

I can give you real world load data and speeds this evening after I get back home and look at my notes, if you want.

ackleyman is running a pair of 223AI rifle's for prarie dog killin', maybe he'll chime in as well. I've talked with him and he's getting better speeds than I. His 23" rifle shoots 50's at 3750, and his 27"er runs 50's at 3850. Both of his are 1-14"tw IIRC.

Sorry if this sounds like I'm rambling, and chopped up....I was in the realoading room all of last night, and just typed this up as I'm getting ready to head out the door...in a hurry.

Have a good day guys, Brad.
 
I wonder if the pressures of the fellows using the .223AI are running higher than expected. I know there is a bit more room in the case ...... but not as much increase in volume as might be achieved with a more tapered case like the .257 Roberts or .22-250 Rem.

I was talking to a gunsmith who specializes in building varmint rifles a couple years back and he told me that I could expect about 150 to 200 fps. increase in velocity, at best, from the AI version of the .223, and if I am getting more, it's probably due to my running the shells at higher than normal, safe pressures.
 
If your main target is 'yotes and PD type animals, I would not go with a 22-250. The 22-250 is more than you need and will wind up being a handicap for PDs. Also consider barrel life - I ate up a 22-250 barrel on my first dog trip, and never took one for PDs again.

On a dog town, you really need to see your misses so you can correct for followup shots, and with a 22-250, you won't see them.

For PDs, I would stay with a 204, or 222 to 222 Mag family... they will do fine on 'yotes too.

-

The increase for the 223 AI is on the order of about 100 fps. The increase in case volume is 1.5 grains off powder, and that is not going to take it anywhere close .22-250 levels.

Claims that the 223AI is nearly equal to the 22-250 are BS.

The .223AI holds 28~ish grains of powder, the .22-250 holds 40~ish grains of powder.


.
 
How they compare depends on each individual gun. But the .223AI has worked so well for me that it would be my choice over a 22-250.

My current 22-250 is a fast one. The accuracy load in this particular rifle is a 50BT at 3925 using 37.5gr. powder. Other powders the charge is around 39-39.5gr.

With the 223AI, fireform loads were 50TNT's at 3700-3725. With formed brass, accuracy load with a 50BT is 3825 using 28gr. of VV133 powder. That's 10gr less than the 22-250. Accuracy with 55BT's is at 3655 using 28.5gr of a VV135 powder. The 40BT can be shot anywhere from 4000 to 4200 with holes-touching accuracy. Velocity changes with different bullet/powder combinations, but you get the idea. Now this is with the good barrel, a 14" twist 25" Schneider with tight no-freebore chamber. Brass is IMI and bullets have a thin film of Lee Lube. Copper fouling isn't even a consideration....the barrel cleans up with wet patches and Montana Extreme. It hardly even needs a brush. I have 2 other 223AI lesser quality barrels that are slower and not as accurate. A new gun was just finished with a long 14" twist Krieger, same .250"nk, no freebore chamber. My shooting is with 50's......nothing will ever be heavier than 55gr. and 14" twist has always worked fine.

Both cartridges have an (accurate) velocity window that depends on variables. My first 22-250 shot really well but the accuracy load with that particular 55gr bullet/powder combination was only doing about 3550. So let's say the performance window for a 22-250 and 55gr bullets would be 3550-3800. With 50's it'll be what? about 3700 to an absolute max of 3950? A 223AI with a good barrel/chamber will easily overlap the 22-250 performance window. It also won't heat up as quickly nor foul as much. Strong brass is a factor. IMI is very strong and the Lapua Match should be about identical. I believe what makes this cartridge work so well is a happy combination of loading density and powders very well suited to that size case, plus the fact that AI's are accurate at full throttle.
 
I had only one thing in mind when I got my 223 AI barrel put on my old Sako Vixen to replace the 222 mag barrel. Krieger asked me what weight bullets I would be shooting and I stated 55 grain as max and mostly 50 grains so I got the 1 in 12 twist.

Everywhere I looked for load data people were extolling the virtues of H335 but in my rifle I never got the published velocities before getting serious signs of pressure and accuracy was atrocious. I came up with a fair load using Benchmark but velocities were still kinda low. Just on a whim I picked up a can of H4895 and came up with a great load. 50 grain V-Max at 3680 fps and groups just under 1/2" Using a 50 grain Nosler BT gives me about 3645 fps at about 3/4" This is with a 23 7/8" sporter barrel. Not bad. I'll be whipping up some 40 grain loads just to see what they'll do with H4895. I've gotten tighter groups but with lower velocities and ironically my best groups were with standard 223 rounds while fire forming.

I'm not going to state the amount of powder as this is a wildcat and there are too many differences in individual rifles. My barrel was chambered with a brand new reamer and it's a little tight compared to a couple of others I've looked at at the gun club I belong to.

The 223 is a good cartridge but the 223 Ackley really is an improvement. 223 loads are every bit as accurate as the 223 AI loads so fire forming is almost painless.

As stated above you may have a problem with the AI's feeding through some actions so I would have a competent gunsmith do the conversion. My old Vixen action had no problems so I was lucky but I've heard that Remington actions do need to be worked on.

Whichever twist you decide upon, good luck. It's a great little cartridge. I also shoot (and love) a couple of 22-250's. I can't begin to tell you how good the 22-250 is for shooting predators. When the first factory guns were being sold I had to have one and I certainly wasn't even the slightest bit disappointed. I moved to the 22-250 from the 243. If I were just going to shoot predators it would be my first choice. But the 223 AI gives you good performance from coyotes on down, uses less powder and gives better barrel life. When you're sitting on a squirrel or prairie dog town you can easily go through a couple of hundred rounds. You can burn up a 22-250 barrel pretty fast that way.
 
My 223AI has a Hart 1/14 twist barrel and with 50gr bullets I get around 3600fps thats with 27gr/N-133 and I got that load out of Varmit Hunters magazine from 1995. Best I've gotten with that rifle is 3700fps plus with a 50gr bullets but here with the summer heat and volume PD shooting I just keep it at 27gr/N-133.

I looked at having a 22-250 build but opt for the 22Br instead it does everything the 22-250 will do and use less powder. Well good luck
 
Quote:
Does anybody have a 223 AI barrel for their Encore???
If so, how do you like it?



I have a 24" bull barrel Encore by Virgin Valley with a Douglas chromoly blank. This was made to be a truck gun, but it's heavy. Done with my reamer and it has the same chamber as the Schneider but 40gr loads are about 150fps slower. I chrono'd it some years ago and haven't fooled with it since.
 
Very good posts on the 223 AI, I have two, a 23" Hart with zero freebore and a 27" Hart with zero freebore, both in 14 twist.

For the very best in speed and accuracy, N-133 with the 50's and N-135 with the 55's with accuracy being the quality that is seen at registered bench rest matches with Nosler Ballistic tips.

The 223 Ai will shoot the 40's at 4100-4200 fps in a zero freebore, minimum spec chambered 26" barrel with amazing accuracy using N-133. I have never killed anything with them so I can not attest to their blow up factor.

Having said this, a custom 22/250 with a minimum spec, zero freebore 29" barrel is quite impressive with the 50's in the 3900+ fps range which is about 100+ fps faster than the 223 AI( with a 27" barrel) used with 10+g more powder.

If a guy were a dedicated p. dog shooter, he could go with a 17 AH, then 223 AI, then straight to the 243AI and he could cover all the bases.

I have a lot to learn on this fast twist stuff. If I can't blow them 6-12 feet, I'd rather stay at home. I really don't like to shoot past 450 yards due to the blow up factor.

Guys have mentioned the 22 BR, I think that they use too much powder for high volume shooting, at least my barrels got red hot QUICK with 31.5g of R#15 with a 50g Bullet. I pretty much hosed a barrel in two days of red hot shooting, but that is how you make lasting memories that last you till you are in a wheel chair in a retirement home.

It's just a hobby, so be creative and make it fun for you!
Make some memories!
 
well ihave a ruger m77 mkII stainless wiht the skelatal stock all factory i was considering to do it too.But i would like to get a different stock, bead blast,(or a custom barrel) and tune the trigger if i did it to this rifle. My qusestion would this be worth it or swould it be better to get a diferent rifle. if i had to guess there is about 600 rounds shot through the rifle

And what would a ballpark price for the job, and does anyone know what some of the prices custom guys charge that frequent this sight.
 
Nothing wrong with building a rifle on a ruger action...it won't be the lightest rifle...but it'll work.

Would it be worth it.....only you can answer that, but I say EVERYONE deserves to own at least one custom rifle built to their specs. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
 
gethuntin, a Boyd's laminate stock, plus a Hart, Lilja, or Kreiger barrel would be one heck of a custom gun on your ruger.

I had a switch barrel Ruger 77 in a McMillen hunter class stock with Douglas 308 #5 contour and a 26" light varminit with 12 twist 243 AI min spec zero freebore chamber. Both the 308 and the 243 AI shot very tiny groups with an 8-32 B & L scope in it.

Pay very close attention to the quality of the reamer that the gunsmith uses.
 
Quote:
Very good posts on the 223 AI, I have two, a 23" Hart with zero freebore and a 27" Hart with zero freebore, both in 14 twist.

For the very best in speed and accuracy, N-133 with the 50's and N-135 with the 55's with accuracy being the quality that is seen at registered bench rest matches with Nosler Ballistic tips.

The 223 Ai will shoot the 40's at 4100-4200 fps in a zero freebore, minimum spec chambered 26" barrel with amazing accuracy using N-133. I have never killed anything with them so I can not attest to their blow up factor.

Having said this, a custom 22/250 with a minimum spec, zero freebore 29" barrel is quite impressive with the 50's in the 3900+ fps range which is about 100+ fps faster than the 223 AI( with a 27" barrel) used with 10+g more powder.

If a guy were a dedicated p. dog shooter, he could go with a 17 AH, then 223 AI, then straight to the 243AI and he could cover all the bases.

I have a lot to learn on this fast twist stuff. If I can't blow them 6-12 feet, I'd rather stay at home. I really don't like to shoot past 450 yards due to the blow up factor.

Guys have mentioned the 22 BR, I think that they use too much powder for high volume shooting, at least my barrels got red hot QUICK with 31.5g of R#15 with a 50g Bullet. I pretty much hosed a barrel in two days of red hot shooting, but that is how you make lasting memories that last you till you are in a wheel chair in a retirement home.

It's just a hobby, so be creative and make it fun for you!
Make some memories!



I read on another site about 22ppc/22Br and it sounded about the same as your post so I assume you are Keith Chandler.
 
Back
Top