Reloading 5.56 x 45?
- Thread starter nocternal
- Start date
Widow maker 223
Active member
And dont worry about crimping the bullets its a waste of time.
Smokeless
New member
Originally Posted By: nocternalDo I use a 223 rem. die to reload 5.56 cases ? I know there's differences in the 2 cases and I'm new to the ar world. Is there that much of a difference in the 2 as far as accuracy or should I just stick with .223 for fun range shooting?
Yep. .223 Rem die. No difference in cases, just roll on. One is military and one is civilian. You say tomato, I say potato.
Yep. .223 Rem die. No difference in cases, just roll on. One is military and one is civilian. You say tomato, I say potato.
Ridgeline17
New member
And here we go again. Told ya it would be about 4 wks.
CatShooter
New member
Originally Posted By: Ridgeline17And here we go again. Told ya it would be about 4 wks.
Yup... you did say it.
You can maybe understand it from a newbee that just signed on 3 days ago, but he's been here 6 years!!! An he never read one of the 8,917 threads on 5.56x45 vs .223 Rem???
I just don't get it.
Yup... you did say it.
You can maybe understand it from a newbee that just signed on 3 days ago, but he's been here 6 years!!! An he never read one of the 8,917 threads on 5.56x45 vs .223 Rem???
I just don't get it.
OldTurtle
Moderator - Deceased
Quote:You can maybe understand it from a newbee that just signed on 3 days ago, but he's been here 6 years!!! An he never read one of the 8,917 threads on 5.56x45 vs .223 Rem???...I've been here for several years and seldom read the threads about loading .17 or 30-06, simply because they don't apply to my needs...If I ever get one of those calibers, then I'll probably pay more attention to the subject...
Please, cut a guy a little slack...I will admit that it's not that hard to use the search facility to find those threads though...
Please, cut a guy a little slack...I will admit that it's not that hard to use the search facility to find those threads though...
CatShooter
New member
Originally Posted By: OldTurtleQuote:You can maybe understand it from a newbee that just signed on 3 days ago, but he's been here 6 years!!! An he never read one of the 8,917 threads on 5.56x45 vs .223 Rem???...I've been here for several years and seldom read the threads about loading .17 or 30-06, simply because they don't apply to my needs...If I ever get one of those calibers, then I'll probably pay more attention to the subject...
Please, cut a guy a little slack...I will admit that it's not that hard to use the search facility to find those threads though...
I think he was "cut a little slack"...
But I was thinking, why this thing with the 5.56 and the 223?
When the 30-06 was the military cartridge, no one wondered if they could shoot the military rounds in civilian rifles, and civilian rounds in a military M1 Garand...
... and when we switched to the 308, no one wondered if they could shoot the military rounds in civilian rifles, and civilian rounds in a military rifles...
So, whatthehell is it with the 223 - 5.56x45 combination???
Please, cut a guy a little slack...I will admit that it's not that hard to use the search facility to find those threads though...
I think he was "cut a little slack"...
But I was thinking, why this thing with the 5.56 and the 223?
When the 30-06 was the military cartridge, no one wondered if they could shoot the military rounds in civilian rifles, and civilian rounds in a military M1 Garand...
... and when we switched to the 308, no one wondered if they could shoot the military rounds in civilian rifles, and civilian rounds in a military rifles...
So, whatthehell is it with the 223 - 5.56x45 combination???
Ridgeline17
New member
Almost 9000 threads on this subject, thats awesome!!
CatShooter
New member
Originally Posted By: Ridgeline17Almost 9000 threads on this subject, that's awesome!!
Well... someone asks the same question every two or three weeks
God forbid someone might use the search engine
Well... someone asks the same question every two or three weeks
God forbid someone might use the search engine
nocternal
New member
Hey cat, it's my business what I want to ask and do on this forum. Maybe I don't feel like searching for the answer. Or may be I'm just trying to get 5000+ posts because I have nothing else to do in my boring life. Thanks everyone else for helping me. At least you respect others.
Smokeless
New member
Originally Posted By: nocternalHey cat, it's my business what I want to ask and do on this forum. Maybe I don't feel like searching for the answer. Or may be I'm just trying to get 5000+ posts because I have nothing else to do in my boring life. Thanks everyone else for helping me. At least you respect others.
This is how disinformation is spread on the inter-webz.
No one wants to learn the facts, and research those facts within the web or outside of the web. Everyone wants to post opinion, and ask for opinion. Opinions vary, facts do not vary.
Educate yourself before you ask for opinion. Otherwise you will be lead where they will lead you.
This is how disinformation is spread on the inter-webz.
No one wants to learn the facts, and research those facts within the web or outside of the web. Everyone wants to post opinion, and ask for opinion. Opinions vary, facts do not vary.
Educate yourself before you ask for opinion. Otherwise you will be lead where they will lead you.
JerrySchmitt
New member
Originally Posted By: nocternalHey cat, it's my business what I want to ask and do on this forum. Maybe I don't feel like searching for the answer. Or may be I'm just trying to get 5000+ posts because I have nothing else to do in my boring life. Thanks everyone else for helping me. At least you respect others.
You are exactly right. It is your business. And it is the business of the person responding as to what they post. I thought he was nice to you considering we just had this conversation twice this year.
You are exactly right. It is your business. And it is the business of the person responding as to what they post. I thought he was nice to you considering we just had this conversation twice this year.
nocternal
New member
Originally Posted By: JerrySchmittOriginally Posted By: nocternalHey cat, it's my business what I want to ask and do on this forum. Maybe I don't feel like searching for the answer. Or may be I'm just trying to get 5000+ posts because I have nothing else to do in my boring life. Thanks everyone else for helping me. At least you respect others.
You are exactly right. It is your business. And it is the business of the person responding as to what they post. I thought he was nice to you considering we just had this conversation twice this year. I was looking for an answer to my question , not his 2 cents on research or how many times he's bothered by this question . If he isn't here to answer it then move on.
You are exactly right. It is your business. And it is the business of the person responding as to what they post. I thought he was nice to you considering we just had this conversation twice this year. I was looking for an answer to my question , not his 2 cents on research or how many times he's bothered by this question . If he isn't here to answer it then move on.
BubbaChicken
New member
Why is it that this happens, yet there IS a SLIGHT difference in the cases that is measurable? I looked it up when I first got my AR, and found all sorts of weapons manufacturer sites and reloading sites that mention that if you use 5.56x45 in a .223 chamber you run the risk of some of those chambers being overpressure, so I think there SHOULD be some slack given when even the ammomakers themselves cannot decide! Heck the fellow that owned the gunshop that sold me the AR told me I could fire either in my rifle, but that it was "chambered for the military version"! So there presumably IS a slight difference when the other experts are saying there is! Heck, just for a hoot, lemme go dig a little for some statistics....
Besides, it is nice to be able to talk with the person giving the info, I for one have seen threads that were years old that address things, and not only are the posts incorrect, the OPs and the repliers aren't even online anymore.
Nocturnal, I am not against or for you on this one exactly, but I think the response you got was not entirely deserved in all cases. Chalk it up to frustration, bub, there are some whom think that once they in particular say something, it is not only gospel, but cannot be challenged by someone that did not hunt down their version before asking again...
Besides, it is nice to be able to talk with the person giving the info, I for one have seen threads that were years old that address things, and not only are the posts incorrect, the OPs and the repliers aren't even online anymore.
Nocturnal, I am not against or for you on this one exactly, but I think the response you got was not entirely deserved in all cases. Chalk it up to frustration, bub, there are some whom think that once they in particular say something, it is not only gospel, but cannot be challenged by someone that did not hunt down their version before asking again...
BubbaChicken
New member
Ok, that took 15 seconds....
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.223 Remington vs. 5.56 NATO: What You Don’t Know Could Hurt You
By: Human Events
2/15/2011 03:01 AM
2
Is firing a 5.56 NATO cartridge in your .223 Remington chambered AR15 dangerous? Or do Internet forum-ninjas and ammunition companies selling you commercial ammo instead of surplus overstate the dangers? Believe it or not, a real danger exists, and some gun owners who think they are doing the right thing may not be safe.
The Cartridges
The .223 Remington and 5.56x45 NATO cartridges are very similar, and externally appear the same. But there are some differences that lie beneath the surface.
The 5.56 case has thicker walls to handle higher pressures, meaning the interior volume of the case is smaller than that of a .223. This will alter the loading data used when reloading 5.56 brass to .223 specs.
Some 5.56 loads have a slightly longer overall length than commercial .223 loads.
The Chambers
The significant difference between the .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO lies in the rifles, rather than the cartridges themselves. Both the .223 and 5.56 rounds will chamber in rifles designed for either cartridge, but the critical component, leade, will be different in each rifle.
The leade is the area of the barrel in front of the chamber prior to where the rifling begins. This is where the loaded bullet is located when a cartridge is chambered. The leade is frequently called the “throat.”
On a .223 Remington spec rifle, the leade will be 0.085”. This is the standard described by the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute, Inc. (SAAMI). The leade in a 5.56 NATO spec rifle is 0.162”, or almost double the leade of the .223 rifle.
A shorter leade in a SAAMI spec rifle creates a situation where the bullet in a 5.56 NATO round, when chambered, can contact the rifling prior to being fired. By having contact with the rifling prematurely (at the moment of firing), chamber pressure can be dramatically increased, creating the danger of a ruptured case or other cartridge/gun failure.
The reverse situation, a .223 Rem round in a 5.56 NATO gun, isn’t dangerous. The leade is longer, so a slight loss in velocity and accuracy may be experienced, but there is not a danger of increased pressures and subsequent catastrophic failure.
How serious is the danger of firing 5.56 ammo in .223 guns? Dangerous enough that the SAAMI lists 5.56 military ammo as being not for use in .223 firearms in the technical data sheet titled “Unsafe Firearm-Ammunition Combinations.”
ATK, the parent company of ammunition manufacturers Federal Cartridge Company and Speer, published a bulletin entitled “The Difference Between 223 Rem and 5.56 Military Cartridges.” In this bulletin, ATK stated using 5.56 ammo in a .223 rifle could result in “…primer pocket gas leaks, blown cartridge case heads, and gun functioning issues.”
However, the danger may be lower than SAAMI or ATK suggest. In Technical Note #74 from ArmaLite, the company states “millions of rounds of NATO ammunition have been fired safely in Eagle Arms and ArmaLite’s® SAAMI chambers over the past 22 years,” and they have not had any catastrophic failures.
According to ArmaLite:
“Occasionally a non-standard round (of generally imported) ammunition will fit too tightly in the leade, and resistance to early bullet movement can cause elevated chamber pressures. These pressures are revealed by overly flattened primers or by powder stains around the primer that reveal leaking gasses.”
What Do You Have?
So, if you own a rifle chambered for the .223 for 5.56, do you know for which caliber it is really chambered?
Many match rifles are chambered in .223 Remington (SAAMI specs) for tighter tolerances, and theoretically better accuracy.
Many of the AR-15’s currently sold on the market are made for the 5.56 NATO cartridge. If you own one of these, you should be fine with any .223 or 5.56 ammunition.
However, ATK dropped this bomb in the bulletin on the .223/5.56:
“It is our understanding that commercially available AR15’s and M16’s – although some are stamped 5.56 Rem on the receiver – are manufactured with .223 chambers.”
So, even if your AR is stamped 5.56, is it really? Check your owner’s manual or call the company directly and make sure you get an answer you feel comfortable with.
As if the confusion regarding the .223 vs 5.56 chambers wasn’t enough, there is a third possibility in the mix, that is being used by at least one major manufacturer. The .223 Wylde chamber is a modified SAAMI-spec .223 chamber that allows for the safe use of 5.56 NATO rounds, but maintains tighter tolerances for better accuracy.
Yeah, yeah… What’s the bottom line?
Here’s the bottom line. If you want to follow the safest possible course, always shoot .223 Remington ammunition. The .223 Rem cartridge will safely shoot in any rifle chambered for the .223 or 5.56.
If you want to shoot 5.56 NATO rounds, make sure you have a rifle designed for the 5.56 military cartridge. Shooting 5.56 in a normal .223 Rem rifle can result in bad things.
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.223 Remington vs. 5.56 NATO: What You Don’t Know Could Hurt You
By: Human Events
2/15/2011 03:01 AM
2
Is firing a 5.56 NATO cartridge in your .223 Remington chambered AR15 dangerous? Or do Internet forum-ninjas and ammunition companies selling you commercial ammo instead of surplus overstate the dangers? Believe it or not, a real danger exists, and some gun owners who think they are doing the right thing may not be safe.
The Cartridges
The .223 Remington and 5.56x45 NATO cartridges are very similar, and externally appear the same. But there are some differences that lie beneath the surface.
The 5.56 case has thicker walls to handle higher pressures, meaning the interior volume of the case is smaller than that of a .223. This will alter the loading data used when reloading 5.56 brass to .223 specs.
Some 5.56 loads have a slightly longer overall length than commercial .223 loads.
The Chambers
The significant difference between the .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO lies in the rifles, rather than the cartridges themselves. Both the .223 and 5.56 rounds will chamber in rifles designed for either cartridge, but the critical component, leade, will be different in each rifle.
The leade is the area of the barrel in front of the chamber prior to where the rifling begins. This is where the loaded bullet is located when a cartridge is chambered. The leade is frequently called the “throat.”
On a .223 Remington spec rifle, the leade will be 0.085”. This is the standard described by the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute, Inc. (SAAMI). The leade in a 5.56 NATO spec rifle is 0.162”, or almost double the leade of the .223 rifle.
A shorter leade in a SAAMI spec rifle creates a situation where the bullet in a 5.56 NATO round, when chambered, can contact the rifling prior to being fired. By having contact with the rifling prematurely (at the moment of firing), chamber pressure can be dramatically increased, creating the danger of a ruptured case or other cartridge/gun failure.
The reverse situation, a .223 Rem round in a 5.56 NATO gun, isn’t dangerous. The leade is longer, so a slight loss in velocity and accuracy may be experienced, but there is not a danger of increased pressures and subsequent catastrophic failure.
How serious is the danger of firing 5.56 ammo in .223 guns? Dangerous enough that the SAAMI lists 5.56 military ammo as being not for use in .223 firearms in the technical data sheet titled “Unsafe Firearm-Ammunition Combinations.”
ATK, the parent company of ammunition manufacturers Federal Cartridge Company and Speer, published a bulletin entitled “The Difference Between 223 Rem and 5.56 Military Cartridges.” In this bulletin, ATK stated using 5.56 ammo in a .223 rifle could result in “…primer pocket gas leaks, blown cartridge case heads, and gun functioning issues.”
However, the danger may be lower than SAAMI or ATK suggest. In Technical Note #74 from ArmaLite, the company states “millions of rounds of NATO ammunition have been fired safely in Eagle Arms and ArmaLite’s® SAAMI chambers over the past 22 years,” and they have not had any catastrophic failures.
According to ArmaLite:
“Occasionally a non-standard round (of generally imported) ammunition will fit too tightly in the leade, and resistance to early bullet movement can cause elevated chamber pressures. These pressures are revealed by overly flattened primers or by powder stains around the primer that reveal leaking gasses.”
What Do You Have?
So, if you own a rifle chambered for the .223 for 5.56, do you know for which caliber it is really chambered?
Many match rifles are chambered in .223 Remington (SAAMI specs) for tighter tolerances, and theoretically better accuracy.
Many of the AR-15’s currently sold on the market are made for the 5.56 NATO cartridge. If you own one of these, you should be fine with any .223 or 5.56 ammunition.
However, ATK dropped this bomb in the bulletin on the .223/5.56:
“It is our understanding that commercially available AR15’s and M16’s – although some are stamped 5.56 Rem on the receiver – are manufactured with .223 chambers.”
So, even if your AR is stamped 5.56, is it really? Check your owner’s manual or call the company directly and make sure you get an answer you feel comfortable with.
As if the confusion regarding the .223 vs 5.56 chambers wasn’t enough, there is a third possibility in the mix, that is being used by at least one major manufacturer. The .223 Wylde chamber is a modified SAAMI-spec .223 chamber that allows for the safe use of 5.56 NATO rounds, but maintains tighter tolerances for better accuracy.
Yeah, yeah… What’s the bottom line?
Here’s the bottom line. If you want to follow the safest possible course, always shoot .223 Remington ammunition. The .223 Rem cartridge will safely shoot in any rifle chambered for the .223 or 5.56.
If you want to shoot 5.56 NATO rounds, make sure you have a rifle designed for the 5.56 military cartridge. Shooting 5.56 in a normal .223 Rem rifle can result in bad things.
BubbaChicken
New member
So, there ya go.. They are decidedly (ed.) not the same, but they are danged CLOSE.
Last edited:
CatShooter
New member
Originally Posted By: BubbaChickenSo, there ya go.. They are decidedly (ed.) not the same, but they are danged CLOSE.
Sorry, but you are wrong.
There has NEVER been a problem with shooting either cartridge in the other gun. Millions and billions of 5.56 have been shot in 223 rifles, and visa-versa... without a problem.
If you take new cases made by Winchester, Remington, Lapua, and all the rest, you will find more differences than you can write down - add LC to the mix, and nothing changes.
There are still tens of thousands of guys on the internet that SWEAR 5.56x45 cases weigh more than .223 cases.
You will even read it in loading books - but it DOESN'T... 5.56x45 Lake City is actually one of the lightest cases available.
Where does this garbage come from... people that know nothing, and make stuff up, cuz they have a friend, who's sister went out with a guy that use to work part time at Dick's Sporting Goods store (in the fishing department), and "He said...".
Nosler's loading manual says (in their 223 loading section) that loading the 5.56x45 military case is dangerous because they are very heavy and thick, and pressures are dangerous. Well, Jesus, Buddy, it MUST be true if Nosler said so - right??
I called Nosler some months ago and asked to speak to the person in charge of their loading manual, and go to the head of ballistics. I asked him where that came from and he said he didn't know. I asked him if he ever weighed a 223 case vs a 5,56x45 case... he said "No, I haven't".
So I asked him why they have that warning in their loading manual, and he said (I love this - a real ballistic expert at work!!)...
... "Well it was there when I came here, so I left it there." I told him to weigh some and I would call him back - a few days later, I called him back, and asked him. He said they will take the warning out in the next edition - I asked when will that be, and he said "About four or five years".
You will find more difference in cases made from the same maker at different times of the year, than those "reported" by your citations.
You must love Google, cuz you have so much faith in it - - unfortunately, Google does not give you the truth, it gives you everything, garbage included - it is up to you (and the BS filter in your brain) to filter out the garbage, and find "Da' trut!"... if you can.
Instead of running around Google and cherry-picking stuff, why don't you post real numbers and where the danger is???
I do this stuff and I advise ammunition makers for a living.
You can believe what you want!
Sorry, but you are wrong.
There has NEVER been a problem with shooting either cartridge in the other gun. Millions and billions of 5.56 have been shot in 223 rifles, and visa-versa... without a problem.
If you take new cases made by Winchester, Remington, Lapua, and all the rest, you will find more differences than you can write down - add LC to the mix, and nothing changes.
There are still tens of thousands of guys on the internet that SWEAR 5.56x45 cases weigh more than .223 cases.
You will even read it in loading books - but it DOESN'T... 5.56x45 Lake City is actually one of the lightest cases available.
Where does this garbage come from... people that know nothing, and make stuff up, cuz they have a friend, who's sister went out with a guy that use to work part time at Dick's Sporting Goods store (in the fishing department), and "He said...".
Nosler's loading manual says (in their 223 loading section) that loading the 5.56x45 military case is dangerous because they are very heavy and thick, and pressures are dangerous. Well, Jesus, Buddy, it MUST be true if Nosler said so - right??
I called Nosler some months ago and asked to speak to the person in charge of their loading manual, and go to the head of ballistics. I asked him where that came from and he said he didn't know. I asked him if he ever weighed a 223 case vs a 5,56x45 case... he said "No, I haven't".
So I asked him why they have that warning in their loading manual, and he said (I love this - a real ballistic expert at work!!)...
... "Well it was there when I came here, so I left it there." I told him to weigh some and I would call him back - a few days later, I called him back, and asked him. He said they will take the warning out in the next edition - I asked when will that be, and he said "About four or five years".
You will find more difference in cases made from the same maker at different times of the year, than those "reported" by your citations.
You must love Google, cuz you have so much faith in it - - unfortunately, Google does not give you the truth, it gives you everything, garbage included - it is up to you (and the BS filter in your brain) to filter out the garbage, and find "Da' trut!"... if you can.
Instead of running around Google and cherry-picking stuff, why don't you post real numbers and where the danger is???
I do this stuff and I advise ammunition makers for a living.
You can believe what you want!