Reloading questions/help

[xj-jake]

Finally got to the range to try out my new to me 222. I bought brass and reloaded some 40grn v-max bullets in Remington brass and Benchmark powder. The gun shot beautifully and I was fairly impressed with the group at 100 considering the shitty Bushnell glass I put on it for the time being.

I did bring it out to 200 but the crosshairs made it difficult to be accurate. But I digress.

An MOA group at 100 was great considering everything, first time behind the gun, and my first hand loads. I looked at data from my Garmin afterwards and was disappointed in the es and sd.

To be fair, this will really only be a target or varmint gun I may shoot some local competitions at the gun clubs, but it won’t be anything that I will necessarily be competing with.

I have an idea or thought that it could be the brass itself or potentially a powder charge that caused the vast variation in data points. Either way it look great on paper and just wanted to get some opinions.

 

[Sgt_Mike]

Nice rifle, .222 is a good caliber for your posted needs.
thoughts are :
Did you "throw" the powder charge or weigh /trickle each charge? (either is fine as long as the method is consistent, personally I throw my charges)
try some differing bullets Manufacturer such as speer TnT, Noslers, even Sierria's in the 40gr that are flat based, and shorter in length than the V-max's are. They usually shoot tighter than a BT inside the 500ish yard line.
Better optic probably would tighten the existing load up. maybe.

But I wouldn't throw out that load looks to be a winner, varmint nor paper cares about a es or sd variation only gun writers do.

 

[CalCoyote]

Please take what I say with a GRAIN OF SALT. There are others on here that know more that I do.

I weigh and trickle each individual load to have the same powder charge but was still not happy with my ES and SD on my hand loads. I removed the expander ball on all my sizing dies and started using a mandrel. The result was pretty dramatic. My ES and SD went way down across the board on all the cartridges I reload for. My group sizes also decreased.

With regard to the 222 Rem. I own one with the Howa mini action and a factory barrel. It seems to prefer the 50g projectiles to the 40g and 45g. I am thinking that maybe the heavier projectile has a slightly longer bearing surface which could help stabilize it better. The 50g Vmax runs really good for me. My 222 is strictly a hunting tool. It has a 20" bbl and only weighs 5.4 lbs which makes it very comfortable to carry in the field. While it is not a long range coyote killer it gets the job done out to 200 yards which is good enough for most all of my predator calling scenarios.

 

[AWS]

Being a 222 Rem fan for a long time. I would look at some heavier flat base target bullets. The 222 earned it's bones with 52gr bullets. Over the past couple years I shot in a couple postal BR matches with a Shaw barreled Savage 10 five shot targets with no mulligans or tossing out a target. I shot a .800 aggregate with Speer 52gr Varmint bullets. I'm happy

It looks like your dealing with some horizontal spread. A good solid bench and rest plus a good rear bag might help. Reading the wind on your range some spaced wind flags so you can read the wind. Also annealing brass so you have the same neck tension.

Also making sure your head is always the same on the stock to help with any parallax problems you might have with the scope. Having to move your head to find the crosshairs will mess with your groups.

 

[B23]

Not to overly complicate things if you're new to reloading but there's a number of things that can cause your ES/SD numbers to be higher than you'd like and for the record your numbers aren't horrible.

If this is brand new unfired brass did you FL size it first or just start loading it straight out of the bag? Do you have a comparator and are you measuring your loaded rounds base to ogive after you seat the bullets?

A lot of people don't FL size new brass but I generally run new brass through a caliber specific mandrel to make the necks round then I chamfer the inside/outside followed by a neck bushing only die to set neck tension, generally, around 2 thou. I don't usually FL size until I start getting fired cases that have a bit of resistance closing the bolt. This can take a couple or even more firings depending on how hard I'm running things before I need to push the shoulder back. I'm not a fan of arbitrarily FL sizing brass just because so I wait till the brass tells me it needs to be FL sized before I do it that way I always headspaces off of the shoulder. From the factory new brass from base to shoulder datum generally has a few thou variance from piece to piece and that variance can cause your ES/SD numbers to be higher then you'd like. Brass is essentially a pressure chamber and variance/s in the volume size, different length base to shoulder lengths, will affect pressure which affects velocity. Unless it's way out of line I wouldn't get to twisted up about ES/SD until you've cycled through new brass with at least one firing on it.

If you've done all the above then start paying closer attention to how consistent you're bullets are being seated. If you don't already have a comparator and a decent caliper get them. Consistent seating depth can do as much for ES/SD numbers as about anything I know of.

FWIW, you don't necessarily have to have single digit ES/SD's for your rifle to still group really well out to a few hundred yards. It's when you really start stretching things out there that those big double digit numbers start kicking your ass.

Also, that's a really good looking rifle you have yourself. It appears to be a Remington "Varmint Special" and I've always been a big fan of that particular model Rem 700.

 

[shoots100]

Nice rifle.
This was your first range session with it, so lots of variables involved to cause erratic numbers.
You have fired brass now, so how do they look ?
Can you push them harder ?
Reload some rounds with different charges and see what happens.
Still erratic, try a different projo and powder.
As was said above, if it's shooting bug holes and you're not going to take it long range, don't worry about the numbers and be happy.
Clean that sumbitch and have some fun.
SJC

 

[spotstalkshoot]

Tight velocity nodes (low es,sd) don't necessarily coincide with small group sizes, especially at close range(under 300 yards). Bullet/powder type and charge weight and seating depth are big factors. Bigger accuracy issues are the barrel quality and the shooter(type of support,bags, bipod). Smaller factors, neck tension, brass quality/prep and primer brand. Wind is an issue for group size and load development analysis. You must use flags, read wind to shoot tight groups. Your load(if my rifle) shows a bit too much vertical dispersion and the horizontal dispersion could be wind effects. 2 things I would address thru load development testing. Be honest with you skills and capabilities of the equipment as a whole system. Optics can be a problem, I do load development with a 20x scope with 0.25 moa dot on hunting rifles. But I have no problem duplicating groups with 9-12x top end magnification at 100-200 yards.

 

[xj-jake]

Thanks for all the tips folks. All brass was used and full length sized. Definitely could be pushed harder. I’m going to play with heavier bullet weights for now then go from there. Maybe some different powder as well (I have a few pounds of Tac I picked up cheap).

B23 it’s actually a Model 70 Varmint from the mid 70’s. Kind of an odd ball with lower production numbers from what I’m told. It’s pre xtr.

I’m happy with it. I’m not a slouch for a shot but wasn’t shooting with a rear bag. There’s improvement to be made. Just trying to decide where to go with it.

I’m doing a Varmint shoot at local range this Saturday and am trying to decide if I take a 6.5 Creedmoor or bring this instead for cool factor.

 

[Sgt_Mike]

Winchester model 70 in .222 Rem If the barrel is still factory (twist rate of 1-14" should be norm)
With a 1-14" twist I personally think selection of a bullet longer than a 50-55gr lead flat base bullet will result in keyholing .

You could do a ladder test (load 1 round ea in 0.3grs increments) to find accuracy nodes. Preferably at 400yards, Some claim as close as 200 Yards can be used. But I think it's way to close of a distance to catch the nodes and would / has a good possibility to give a false positive.

What is the length from rim to the ogive tip of your selected projectile when it makes contact, and the bolt closes once you get that length subtract 0.020" (this establishes the SAFE COAL for your rifle and that bullet from that vendor) use that length to ladder test for every round.

IF you have a bullet comparator it would not be bullet specific. Personally I don't have one (yet) so I measure true COAL and have to use THAT 1 bullet for measuring and die setup. The speer TNT shoots well, very well in my slow twist rifles and is really consistent in length from base to tip.

Example

part2


FINDING JAM Point <<<<< hyper link


remember to slightly lube the ogive of the dummy round before closing the bolt so as to not stick the bullet in the barrel.
If he doesn't cover the selection of nodes from a ladder test and adjusting seating depths look over his channel.

Hopefully those three videos will help you. (watch them at least twice, for it to soak in. The principle is so simple and as humans we for some reason make it hard.)
Erik Cortina won the world championship in F-class, I've been loading for 50 years, and his advice is pretty solid in my opinion. Others will disagree.

Look for two nodes if available with the selected powder in the test before adjusting bullet seating depth for any node. It's not uncommon to have only 1. But two nodes is better

The purpose of a ladder test is to save components and time.

I think I would try the Speer 50gr TNT (#1030) and you said you had TAC? good powder. (my go to choice is H335 for the 223 family, and Have had good luck with TAC as well)
so a ladder with TAC and a 50 grain would look like this (load 1 round each at the JAM length - 0.020" or - 0.028" aka Max safe length ). OBSERVE for pressure as you shoot. Start with lowest to Highest if you see pressure signs from the case after shot STOP
1. 21.2grs
2. 21.5grs
3. 21.8grs
4. 22.1grs
5. 22.4grs
6. 22.7grs
7. 23.0grs
8. 23.3grs
9. 23.6grs (here is where Hodgen says upper limit is, if no sign of pressure you could go on until you do see pressure signs)
10. 23.9grs If your brave. (it's not uncommon for some of my bolt guns to be higher than suggested to be higher than the load data. But when I change Lot #'s I retest)

so say shot #4,5,6,&7 are really close.
shot 1,2,&3 are close , I would use the node that shot 4,5,6,7 gave me 22.1 to 23.0 . doing math I would take 23.0-22.1 = 0.9 divide by two add 22.1grs which would give me 22.5grs (round down)
Fire a 5 shot group measure (if you desire a three shot groups use it. I use five shot groups it's preference), fire the next group and so on. Fire slowly it's not a race and should be enjoyable.
load 5 rounds @ 22.2grs, 22.5, 22.8grs shoot those 15 rounds, measure the groups then select the most accurate. Then adjust my bullet seating depths.
Shorten (-0.003") not lengthening, now have I had to lengthen my safe length, only on match rifles. Your's is a varmint gun so the lead /throat should be zero freebore or close to it. So shortening COAL is the way to go this keeps you off the lands and keeps pressure stable.

Some body I know will disagree with me. Fine but that is pretty much how I look for loads when I have access to a 300yard plus Range. YMMV.