Just recievied my 700 short action back from being rebarelled. Noticed a very small ring all the way around the bolt body about 15/16 of a inch from the end of the bolt behind the recoil lugs. Looks like two pieces maybee joined together. Are remington bolts made this way? If so I did not know it. Thanks for the help, Javy.
remington 700 bolt
- Thread starter javy
- Start date
Went and searched remington 700 bolts and found a article on sleeving remington bolts. The machienist talks about how remington aperantly build these as two pieces. He did not say much other than remington has done this at several locations behind the bolt lug. The smith on the video is truing up a bolt body and pointed to the location of the two parts joining. I could not see the area clear enough to see the line he was talking about.
I quess, maybee, I learned something. Thanks, Javy.
I quess, maybee, I learned something. Thanks, Javy.
CatShooter
New member
The Remington bolt is a two piece bolt.
It is made this way for a reason. The actual lug part is so dammn hard that it would be impossible to machine as a one piece bolt.
One piece bolts cannot even begin to come close to the strength of the Rem (and Winchester) bolts for this reason.
As per Richard Diaz of Rem's research labs - the M700 bolt is capable of withstanding 100,000 pounds of force before exceeding the elastic limits of the lugs.
... now that is NOT 100,000 psi, that is true 100,000 pounds (hanging 20 large pickup trucks on it)... which is 20+ times the force generated by the 0.473" case head.
There is no known event where Rem or Win bolt lugs have failed.
The small shop "Custom" actions use one piece bolts because they are cheap and easy to make... and have maybe 1/4th the raw strength.
It is made this way for a reason. The actual lug part is so dammn hard that it would be impossible to machine as a one piece bolt.
One piece bolts cannot even begin to come close to the strength of the Rem (and Winchester) bolts for this reason.
As per Richard Diaz of Rem's research labs - the M700 bolt is capable of withstanding 100,000 pounds of force before exceeding the elastic limits of the lugs.
... now that is NOT 100,000 psi, that is true 100,000 pounds (hanging 20 large pickup trucks on it)... which is 20+ times the force generated by the 0.473" case head.
There is no known event where Rem or Win bolt lugs have failed.
The small shop "Custom" actions use one piece bolts because they are cheap and easy to make... and have maybe 1/4th the raw strength.
I think the Rem bolt bodies are 3 pieces right? The bolt handle is brazed or soldered on and fails on occasion even when not under duress. The bolt locking lugs are welded/brazed or somehow attached to the tubular bolt body too. I was under the impression that this was for ease of manufacture. I wouldn't think they were 'that' hard so as not to be brittle.
I think the Win M70 bolt is built in a similar manner with the bolt handle being induction welded after pressing on the rear of the bolt body. I know of at least one M70 bolt that had the handle slip so that it became 'out of time'. The owner eventually got the bolt out, 'timed it' and used permanent loctite to 'secure' it. I hope I don't find that one on the used gun rack.
I heard/read that some of the Mossberg ATRs had the same thing happen with some kabooms and injury when the bolt became untimed because the handle slipped and the rifle could be fired without proper lockup.
I think Ruger is the only major manufacturer with a true one piece bolt body. That is the way the good ones were made in the good ole days although via forging instead of investment casting. TnTnTn
I think the Win M70 bolt is built in a similar manner with the bolt handle being induction welded after pressing on the rear of the bolt body. I know of at least one M70 bolt that had the handle slip so that it became 'out of time'. The owner eventually got the bolt out, 'timed it' and used permanent loctite to 'secure' it. I hope I don't find that one on the used gun rack.
I heard/read that some of the Mossberg ATRs had the same thing happen with some kabooms and injury when the bolt became untimed because the handle slipped and the rifle could be fired without proper lockup.
I think Ruger is the only major manufacturer with a true one piece bolt body. That is the way the good ones were made in the good ole days although via forging instead of investment casting. TnTnTn
CatShooter
New member
Originally Posted By: TnTnTn"... The bolt handle is brazed or soldered on..."
That part doesn't count in the above discussion...
That part doesn't count in the above discussion...
Jack Roberts
Moderator - Deceased
"The actual lug part is so dammn hard that it would be impossible to machine as a one piece bolt."
Not true!
The bolt is made in two pieces for ease of manufacture. The lug portion is not very hard at all. It is very easy to machine.
Jack
Not true!
The bolt is made in two pieces for ease of manufacture. The lug portion is not very hard at all. It is very easy to machine.
Jack
2muchgun
New member
I really do not understand where Cat is coming from on this.
Ease of mfg. would be my thought also. I know when my smith trues an action that he machines the bolt lugs. Usually both sides. I also know that when a Sako extractor is installed, some machining is also necessary. How could the metal be so hard that it was impossible to machine in one piece?
Ease of mfg. would be my thought also. I know when my smith trues an action that he machines the bolt lugs. Usually both sides. I also know that when a Sako extractor is installed, some machining is also necessary. How could the metal be so hard that it was impossible to machine in one piece?
CatShooter
New member
Originally Posted By: Jack Roberts"The actual lug part is so dammn hard that it would be impossible to machine as a one piece bolt."
Not true!
The bolt is made in two pieces for ease of manufacture. The lug portion is not very hard at all. It is very easy to machine.
Jack
Sorry Jack - Pure unadulterated Bullpoo.
It is obvious that you have no experence in modern machining or the labor costs in union machine shops like Remington in Illion, NY.
With modern CNC machines, it is easy to put a single solid block of steel in the machine, and come back to a completely finished piece. Complete pistol slides are made this way, from a solid block to a completely finished slide, without being touched by a human hand.
One worker can keep 20 or 30 or 40 CNC machines fed, and IF it was possible to do a bolt in one type of steel, then they would be made in one piece on a CNC machine with NO labor cost - and talk about "ease of manufacture"???... Jack, it doesn't get any easier than that!
But to make it in two pieces, and then have to set up the bolt body and bolt head in a jig, and them weld them, clean up the welds (both inside and outside), then magnaflux them... and you say this makes it easier to manufacture it... you are out of your mind and crazy, or what???
But, go pull the bolt out of a Rem 700, and first look at the body - no tool marks - nice and smooth... look at the cocking cam surface - real smooth with no tool makes... pull out the firing pin assembly (you DO have a tool for that, don't you?)... look at the cut threads... nice and clean and smooth.
Now, take a look at the bolt head. Compared to the body, it's crude at best.
Look at the surface of the bolt face - 99% of them have bad tool marks, bad enough to mark the primers - look at the undersides of the lugs - also, a lotta tool marks, not smooth at all - look at the anti-bind grove - not real clean.
Why is this Jack?? It's because the bolt head is a DIFFERENT alloy Jack, and it is a pain in the tail to machine. It CAN be machined, and smiths CAN clean it up, but it is very time consuming.
If the whole bolt was made of this allow, it would look like a high school project from girls machine shop.
And you can not have two alloys on one piece, unless you find a way of attaching them - and with bolts, you braze or weld... that just the way it is Jack.
Now, I don't expect anything intelligent from 2mg... this is a silly game with him - but, Jack, let me remind you that you are a moderator - the members expect more from you than some of the loud mouths on the board.
You can add this one to your comment about a 20x variable not being as accurate as a 20x fixed scope...
... or the one about the 700-SPS action being the same one as the 40X...
Maybe it's getting time to hang it up Jack... you are getting in it deep enough that you need waders.
Not true!
The bolt is made in two pieces for ease of manufacture. The lug portion is not very hard at all. It is very easy to machine.
Jack
Sorry Jack - Pure unadulterated Bullpoo.
It is obvious that you have no experence in modern machining or the labor costs in union machine shops like Remington in Illion, NY.
With modern CNC machines, it is easy to put a single solid block of steel in the machine, and come back to a completely finished piece. Complete pistol slides are made this way, from a solid block to a completely finished slide, without being touched by a human hand.
One worker can keep 20 or 30 or 40 CNC machines fed, and IF it was possible to do a bolt in one type of steel, then they would be made in one piece on a CNC machine with NO labor cost - and talk about "ease of manufacture"???... Jack, it doesn't get any easier than that!
But to make it in two pieces, and then have to set up the bolt body and bolt head in a jig, and them weld them, clean up the welds (both inside and outside), then magnaflux them... and you say this makes it easier to manufacture it... you are out of your mind and crazy, or what???
But, go pull the bolt out of a Rem 700, and first look at the body - no tool marks - nice and smooth... look at the cocking cam surface - real smooth with no tool makes... pull out the firing pin assembly (you DO have a tool for that, don't you?)... look at the cut threads... nice and clean and smooth.
Now, take a look at the bolt head. Compared to the body, it's crude at best.
Look at the surface of the bolt face - 99% of them have bad tool marks, bad enough to mark the primers - look at the undersides of the lugs - also, a lotta tool marks, not smooth at all - look at the anti-bind grove - not real clean.
Why is this Jack?? It's because the bolt head is a DIFFERENT alloy Jack, and it is a pain in the tail to machine. It CAN be machined, and smiths CAN clean it up, but it is very time consuming.
If the whole bolt was made of this allow, it would look like a high school project from girls machine shop.
And you can not have two alloys on one piece, unless you find a way of attaching them - and with bolts, you braze or weld... that just the way it is Jack.
Now, I don't expect anything intelligent from 2mg... this is a silly game with him - but, Jack, let me remind you that you are a moderator - the members expect more from you than some of the loud mouths on the board.
You can add this one to your comment about a 20x variable not being as accurate as a 20x fixed scope...
... or the one about the 700-SPS action being the same one as the 40X...
Maybe it's getting time to hang it up Jack... you are getting in it deep enough that you need waders.
2muchgun
New member
You are wrong as usual. Nesika Bay does it............
http://www.nesika.com/nesika-actions.html
And so does Surgeon. One piece:
http://www.surgeonrifles.com/products/actions/?module=products&product_id=140
I told my gunsmith what you said and he said, "That guy must be on dope. It is easier to manufacture in 2 pieces."
Once again you are FOS. How many times does that make it now?
You can add this one to your comments about Wylde chambers, Leupold reticles being etched and not wire, 162gr A-maxes not stabilizing in 1-9.5 twist barrels, assembly line workers making more than family doctors, the 6mmAI gaining an astounding 17% velocity increase over the 6mm Rem, and your all-time classic opinion that headspace does not affect accuracy.
Did I miss any?
LMAO. You are a legend in your own mind. You should be ashamed of yourself the way you talked to Jack, and I don't appreciate it either.
What a joke.......
http://www.nesika.com/nesika-actions.html
And so does Surgeon. One piece:
http://www.surgeonrifles.com/products/actions/?module=products&product_id=140
I told my gunsmith what you said and he said, "That guy must be on dope. It is easier to manufacture in 2 pieces."
Once again you are FOS. How many times does that make it now?
You can add this one to your comments about Wylde chambers, Leupold reticles being etched and not wire, 162gr A-maxes not stabilizing in 1-9.5 twist barrels, assembly line workers making more than family doctors, the 6mmAI gaining an astounding 17% velocity increase over the 6mm Rem, and your all-time classic opinion that headspace does not affect accuracy.
Did I miss any?
LMAO. You are a legend in your own mind. You should be ashamed of yourself the way you talked to Jack, and I don't appreciate it either.
What a joke.......
Jack Roberts
Moderator - Deceased
You loose this one Cat.
I have had over 100 700 bolts in the lathe and can assure you the lugs are quite soft. Plain tool steel cuts them like butter. Locking lugs can not be very hard because they will fatigue and crack. All the classic bolt failures, like on the early Springfields, were caused by lugs that were too hard and fatigued.
If you don't believe the lugs are soft just take a file to the side of them. File on the side of the left lug and the mark won't even be visible when the bolt is in the action.
Jack
I have had over 100 700 bolts in the lathe and can assure you the lugs are quite soft. Plain tool steel cuts them like butter. Locking lugs can not be very hard because they will fatigue and crack. All the classic bolt failures, like on the early Springfields, were caused by lugs that were too hard and fatigued.
If you don't believe the lugs are soft just take a file to the side of them. File on the side of the left lug and the mark won't even be visible when the bolt is in the action.
Jack
Tim Neitzke
New member
Lapping locking lugs would be much more difficult with hard steel wouldn't it ?
knockemdown
New member
a better look at a Surgeon 1pc. bolt...
CatShooter
New member
Jack - I have also worked on many Rem bolts, and they do NOT cut smoothly.
Obviously, you two guys have missed your calling - you need to get in touch with Remington and tell them what they are doing wrong.
And 2mg... your 'smith is FOS.
Obviously, you two guys have missed your calling - you need to get in touch with Remington and tell them what they are doing wrong.
And 2mg... your 'smith is FOS.