Saami specs

sandy hicks

sandy hicks

New member
Ok. My numbers wont be exact so dont hate. A 3006 by saami has a lower chamber pressure spec than a 270 and they are close to the same age. The 300wsm is loaded to 65000 psi which is higher than the 300 weatherby and 300.win. I know that pressure is subjective in every rifle and barrel, so do ya'll look for the best accuracy and let the rifle dictate the max load or do ya'll stop at the book max. I have several copies of the old weatherby guides that list loads several grains higher than my other manuals of the same era. So learn me sumthin.
 
I use current published load data. When it gets to the top I look at it and make a decision to go on or stop. I'm a bit more adventurous than some thanks to working with so many cartridges with zero loading data. I don’t go crazy so many would call ne conservative in that area.

To me the books are not concrete. Five books five maximums. That is what I call a clue.

Greg
 
My guess would be that some of the older 30-06 rifles, (1906) might not be safe with the older actions, so the lawyers lowered the maximum to be on the safe side. I know a M1 rifle has to have the right pressure loads to work, and even a book maximum load can damage the rifles operation over time.
 
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To understand this, you must understand that back in the day if something went wrong it was your fault. Today it is someone else's fault. Enter the lawyers and liability. There was a time, not that long ago in America, where you could by dynamite at the hardware store with no special license (100 or so years ago). Not so much these days, and has been that way for a long time now. You could buy a full automatic Tommy Gun and have it shipped to your door through mail order just like it was a pound of sugar.

If you look at reloading manuals from the 60's or even someone like Elmer Keith or even P.O Ackley, by today's standards that data is way over max. Steel is better today than then and chamber pressure can be much higher than in Keith's day, but liability is much higher today.

Modern bolt action rifles can withstand 100,000 psi. The limiting pressure factor is now the primer in the case. That is your weak link today and there is no way for anyone to quantify, in writing or print, what load that would be in your rifle.

People always say " I follow book recommendation for a given cartridge" that sounds real fuzzy and safe. However if you get your hands on a book from 1950 ( still a published loading) those loads will blow the roof off of today's published loads. Are they safe? Sure, so long as you reduce and determine what is the max in your rifle. Again the liability is on you. Sue all you want but that won't bring back your eyes or fingers. Don't be dumb.

Learn the real signs of pressure. Research it. Test it and find those limits. I'll promise you that they are far beyond current published maximums.
 
Good answer smokeless. I have a new manual that has a new max load that is 5 grains below my standby load. My favorite load was not the max load in the old manual either.
By my old book I could go to 40 grains but it would only give me 50 fps and accuracy was good so I never even tried it. I have an older manual from the same company that goes up to 42 grains as max.

I was basically just wondering why saami gives one caliber 65000psi and another only 55000.
 
Originally Posted By: sandy hicks

I was basically just wondering why saami gives one caliber 65000psi and another only 55000.




Case design can be one reason. Weather or not a given chambering has old rifles still being used, pre 1900 such as the 6.5x55 swede. No way of knowing what rifle the ammo my be fired in, so they reduce to the lowest common denominator. Also don't get mixed up when comparing pressures. SAAMI is one [USA] and CIP is another [European]. They are both thrown around but rarely agree with each other. For instance SAAMI for the 223 Rem is 55,000 psi, but the CIP is 62,000 psi for the same cartridge. Different equipment from different parts of the world.
 
Originally Posted By: sandy hicksOk. My numbers wont be exact so dont hate. A 3006 by saami has a lower chamber pressure spec than a 270 and they are close to the same age. The 300wsm is loaded to 65000 psi which is higher than the 300 weatherby and 300.win. I know that pressure is subjective in every rifle and barrel, so do ya'll look for the best accuracy and let the rifle dictate the max load or do ya'll stop at the book max. I have several copies of the old weatherby guides that list loads several grains higher than my other manuals of the same era. So learn me sumthin.

I will try to answer the last question. I like to shoot for accuracy. There are some ways to deal with going a little over specs. If a rifle has a long leade then the bullet can be loaded to a longer OAL This allows a little room and therefore is a little less pressure. Keep in mind that these numbers can be small. EX: lets take a max number and go .5 over with the powder. I have a specific caliber and load in mind. The bullet would have to be loaded to .70 thousands longer to stay with in Sammi specs. Thats not holding on to very much. See what I mean? You can sometimes get away with it, but you are beating the gun up. And you may be, beating yourself up, depending upon the caliber. One thing to quickly learn, is that with the little or small calibers such as a 17 or 20 caliber,,, just .1-.3 over, can hurt you. Most times just a little less than Max can often times produce the best accuracy.

I will throw another thing out here. Powder companies change powders sometimes and therefore a new Manual is in order. That is one reason I like to get new publications from powder companies every year if they are available.

Can you go over max? If you do go slow......

 
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Originally Posted By: sandy hicksOk. My numbers wont be exact so dont hate. A 3006 by saami has a lower chamber pressure spec than a 270 and they are close to the same age. The 300wsm is loaded to 65000 psi which is higher than the 300 weatherby and 300.win. I know that pressure is subjective in every rifle and barrel, so do ya'll look for the best accuracy and let the rifle dictate the max load or do ya'll stop at the book max. I have several copies of the old weatherby guides that list loads several grains higher than my other manuals of the same era. So learn me sumthin.



The 30-06 is military and has the M1 Garand snuck in there.

The 270 has the same SAAMI as the 25-06. Again most likely due to the fact that those are chambered in modern bolt actions all though there are a few semi-autos in there.

Then again the 308 win is 62000 and the 243 win is 60000. Go figure.

In the end of it all,,,,, you have no way to test pressure in real numbers in your rifle. Just remember that the primer is your weak link. learn the signs and work up to a comfortable pressure in your rifle, Not the test barrel used by the loading manual. You don't have access to that anyway. Relax and have fun. safety first, of course.
 
When I first got my 300 Mag the starting load of IMR4350 was 2grains higher than the Max load of 4350 in the New manual now.
 
I once had a bad deal happen and according to a quikload done by a member I had 205k psi in my chamber. The rifle didn't grenade. It froze up. Spit oil in my face and kicked like a mule. I use manuals from 1971 for a lot of load work so long as the powder I have is listed. I usually start within 2 ft of max and load 1 round at a time at .3gr intervals and shoot till I see pressure sign in my rifle. I'm not a fan of following max load data as a rule. I've not had anything in a rifle ever be pressured at book max. That's me though. Do what your comfortable with. If your a newer reloader. I'd stick to the book or data you have and take it day till you get to know and know what the pressure signs in your weapon looks like.
 
Originally Posted By: nastynatesfishI once had a bad deal happen and according to a quikload done by a member I had 205k psi in my chamber. The rifle didn't grenade. It froze up. Spit oil in my face and kicked like a mule. I use manuals from 1971 for a lot of load work so long as the powder I have is listed. I usually start within 2 ft of max and load 1 round at a time at .3gr intervals and shoot till I see pressure sign in my rifle. I'm not a fan of following max load data as a rule. I've not had anything in a rifle ever be pressured at book max. That's me though. Do what your comfortable with. If your a newer reloader. I'd stick to the book or data you have and take it day till you get to know and know what the pressure signs in your weapon looks like.




Was. That a published load that you ran with? Or more exploratory on your part?. Reason I ask is 200k plus is crazy. I'm really not sure that any modern firearm would hold together at that pressure.
Curious,,,,,,,, pm me if you would rather.
 
I was just under thinking this. 280 rem is lower than a 270win because it was introduced in an auto with a lower action strength. 300wsm higher pressure than 300 h&h. Both primarily bolt guns but less body taper produces a better bearing surface in the chamber than the tapered h&h.

I have been loading for 20 years and have exactly 0 rifles that shoot best with a max load. I just hate seeing some of the latest fads beating up my old favorites. May be a midlife crisis.
 
Originally Posted By: sandy hicksI was just under thinking this. 280 rem is lower than a 270win because it was introduced in an auto with a lower action strength. 300wsm higher pressure than 300 h&h. Both primarily bolt guns but less body taper produces a better bearing surface in the chamber than the tapered h&h.

I have been loading for 20 years and have exactly 0 rifles that shoot best with a max load. I just hate seeing some of the latest fads beating up my old favorites. May be a midlife crisis.

I load for accuracy. In my 30-06 which by the way is a customized 1903 Springfield,,, I use 54.6 grains of W760 and a Remington core-lokt 150 grain bullet. This has gotten more BS and hahas and more snide remarks than I can think of. I do not give a [beeep] because the gun shoots 3-5 shots in 1 hole at 100yds with this load. and it kills deer all day long. Fads can come and they can go. I will dance with what brung me.
 
Originally Posted By: sandy hicksGood answer smokeless. I have a new manual that has a new max load that is 5 grains below my standby load. My favorite load was not the max load in the old manual either.
By my old book I could go to 40 grains but it would only give me 50 fps and accuracy was good so I never even tried it. I have an older manual from the same company that goes up to 42 grains as max.

I was basically just wondering why saami gives one caliber 65000psi and another only 55000.

Ignoring ballistics and just thinking out loud. The larger a case the more surface area it has. The greater the surface area the more actual force it sees at a given psi, and the chamber has to be stronger to resist failing. The newer the round the better the materials and the better the tolerances are in them, so they will resist the force better, so higher pressure can be safely achieved. Since the 30-06 is such an old round and so many of the old rifles are out there the specs are designed to be safe in the old metal.

If you look at some calibers like the 45-70 you'll find 3 (at least) different load tables in the same book. 1 for black powder era rifles, 1 for lever guns, and a third for modern. The on the shelf loads are safe to be shot in the old old old rifles and are total pussycats. The modern loads, they hurt on the friendly end of the rifle
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NdIndy what you said about the 45-70 Used to hold true for the 30-30. It used to be that there were loads for the Marlins and then there were loads for the Winchesters. Now they just lowered them down and claim it is for all of them. If you look at Paco Kelly's writings then you will see that he loads Newer 30-30s up to a higher range.

In the 45 Colt Caliber we have the loads for the 45 Colt and the loads for the "Ruger only"
Colt sammi specs at 14000 PSI and the Ruger at 30000 PSI Yet, Vhitavouri refuses to publish any loads for the "Ruger only."
Then if you go to a 5 shot cylinder in a custom Ruger large frame you can jump to 50,000 PSI. The 45 Colt another Black Powder era cartridge...
 
I am glad to see someone doing something else besides the same old stuff. This is how we discover things and how we develop things.
John Linebaugh shortened the 45-70 case to get the 475 Linebaugh.
He shortened the 348 winchester to get the 500 linebaugh
Ruger shortened the 475 to get the 480
Jack Huntington shortened the 500 S&W to get the 500 JRH and the 475 to get the 475 SP
Many CASS guys have been shortening the 45 Colt to 45ACP length to get some fine little target rounds.

The 45 Colt brass is not weak as many would like to make you believe. I have loaded them up to way beyond what many would dare, just to shoot them in my 454 Casull. SO, things can go both ways. The 38 SP was lengthened to get the 357 . The Bill Ruger came up with the 357 maximum by lengthening the 357.

SO do the math and be careful. Good Luck
 


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