savage .223 9"twist and coyote pelt damage

The difference in twist will show NO appreciable difference in terminal performance. If you want to try light, rapidly expanding bullets and your Savage does not like one brand...then try another brand until you get what makes you happy. If your average shot is only 50 yds, then only marginal accuracy is perfectly acceptable.
John
 
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so from what jack roberts is saying, if i were to be able to have a 40gr. v-max shoot accurately in a 1-9 twist, i would actually be better with the 1-9 over the 1-12.



Don't think you're comprehending what we're saying. The twist has NOTHING to do with fur damage.


It's the bullet, velocity, and shot placement.

A 1-12" twist limits you with bullet selection as you'll have to stick with the 60's on down. Maybe the 63 Sierra as it is a short bullet.

A 1:9 should still let you shoot the 40's at warp speeds without nuking and give you better versatility if you want to shoot the heavies...

Good luck...
 
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I agree....

I have never seen, nor heard of an appreciable difference in any damage as far as wound chnnel from differeces in twist rate.

It's the bullet, velocity, and shot placement.

The very obvious differences occur with bullets of different design.
 
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so from what jack roberts is saying, if i were to be able to have a 40gr. v-max shoot accurately in a 1-9 twist, i would actually be better with the 1-9 over the 1-12.



Don't think you're comprehending what we're saying. The twist has NOTHING to do with fur damage.


It's the bullet, velocity, and shot placement.

A 1-12" twist limits you with bullet selection as you'll have to stick with the 60's on down. Maybe the 63 Sierra as it is a short bullet.

A 1:9 should still let you shoot the 40's at warp speeds without nuking and give you better versatility if you want to shoot the heavies...

Good luck...



I and a friend, have Savage FVSS's in .223 Rem., with the 1 in 9 twist. They shoot 40 grain Vmax and 40 grain Nosler Bt's very well, sub .3" for three shots, when there is no wind.

However, when I first got it, I tried some 45 grain Hornady Hornets, which shot very well out of his 1 in 12, Weatherby Vanguard .223 Rem., but in the 1 in 9 twist Savage, they were coming apart, and 2 or 3 out of 5 wouldn't make it down to the target.

And, despite the fact that the bullets were having to jump over 1/8" to hit the rifling, they still shot exceptionally well. But, if your's does not, it should shoot the 50 or 55 Vmax or BT's well.

I have never tried the 50 grain or 55 grain Hornady SPSX's in the .223, although I did shoot the 55 grain SPSX's in my .22-250. It worked well until the velocities got a bit too high in the 1 in 14 twist barrel I had, but they may or may not be lower cost alternatives to the Vmax's and BT's. Someone else will have to answer that question for you.
 
I use a Savage 1:9 barrel with 40gr Vmax and love it for coyotes and ground squirrels. No exits on coyotes so far. My barrel shoots them very well. Here's a target from the last time I went out-

Four 5-shot groups with my reloads from 100 yards.
5c4fd306.jpg


This rifle shoots the 40's pretty well, but it shoots the 52 SMK's a little better, and the 69 SMK's the best.

 
A 1-9'' can normally shoot heavy & light 1-12'' can normally only shoot light bullets well.I shoot a 1-8 and a 1-9'' and for me a 60gr V-Max,is a awesome coyote round.
 
Pelt damage is very subjective, so many things go into what and why besides rifleing twist. Bullet type is more a factorthan anything else but maybe placement. Drop the FMJ except for shooting paper they will pass through and the yote will run off to die in a hole where you will very seldom recover it. Hollow points in the lighter bullets tend to explode on entry, if you hit high on a shoulder the would will be very superficial allowing the yote to run off and most likely bleed out. Personally I like the V-Max or the Hornady 55 grn soft points. They will pass through at times makeing a exit wound but again depending on where they enter and what they hit on the way trough, it may or may not be real bad. I have blown yotes near in half and had to shoot twice to drop them with the same load. So I think it all depends on the variables of the animal as well as rifle and bullet.
 
The faster twist definitely makes bullets expand more. A friend and I many times have shot ground squirrels together. He shoots a 12" and I shoot a 9" 223. My hits are much more explosive than his with identical 55 Vmax bullets at about the same velocity.

Jack
 
A faster twist has more rotational speed for sure. When a bullet impacts, it does not stop spinning, it continues to spin. At it impacts and starts to expand, it's still spinning. A bullet that is spinning faster will create more damage. Imagine a blender blade on medium vs a blender blade on high.

Exactly how much more damage a fast twist bullet will cause is beyone my physics capabilities.
 
ok, well i think you guys have me convinced that I will be fine with the 1-9 twist, so i will go with the savage weather warrior like i had planned. If i have problems, then i will just keep trying different loads until i find one that works. I have heard something about filling up a milk jug with water and using that for tests, so i may give that a try. Any opinions on a good scope? I would say around 2-3 hundred bucks?
 
With a 1-8 twist the bullet will turn about 1/4 turn going thru a ground squirrel and a 1-12 about 1/6 turn on same critter so I can't see any more damage. On a coyote you will get about 3/4 turn and 1/2 turn going thru from broad side. The faster twist is "VooDoo"balistics used by the Brady gun control people when they got some hollowpoint slugs outlawed by saying that "the bullet was turning at 300,000 RPMs and they did just awful damage when you shot somebody with it" what they didn't say was yes it was turning that fast but it doesn't stop inside a body cavit and spin for a while they just hoped enough people were dumb enough to not know the truth or think about it logiclly. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif
 
Bear you are exactly correct. Once before on this site I calculated the difference in imparted energy....even if you assume complete rotational transfer, the difference between a 1/12 and 1/9 twist with a 55gr. bullet out of a .223 is less than .2% of the energy transferred. You are MUCH more likely to see rapid expansion from rough barrels than a slightly faster twist. We are currently having a high speed camera built to use with our gelatin testing. This will be one of the first videos we make.
John
 
If I stab you with a 4-pronged blender blade, it's gonna do some damage. If I stab you with the same blender blade while it's spinning, it's going to do more damage. Yes?

I don't believe the "imparted energy" numbers tells the whole story. Energy measurements don't quantify the shredding/cutting effect of a twisting and fragmenting bullet. For example, the sharp petals on an expanded Black Talon bullet (or the newer Ranger T series) cuts tissue and cause a lot more tissue damage than a round soft point bullet, but an "imparted energy" measurement does not reflect the difference in tissue damage.

I'm not sure how to accurately quantify the increased damage from a faster spinning bullet. Gelatin may not tell the whole story, I don't know. Real world results do.

Remember, a bullet from a 1:9 twist barrel is spinning 33% faster than the same bullet from a 1:12 barrel.
 
I just don't see where studies have qualified that that a bullet does APPCRECIABLY more damage.

The bullet is ROUND, so therefore, if it is punching straight through, or spinning while it creates the wound channel, it just does not tip the scales enough to realistically produce more damage.

If you take the simplist form of this problem....A ROUND ball.

If that round ball impacts say a whitetail deer, it flattens out somewhat & projects itself through the animal, creating the wound channel.

Now, SPIN the round ball, say a complete rotation as it travels through the same animal. You may have perhaps a small amount of "cutting effect" from the ball spinning, but the wound channel itself is not CONSIDERABLY more affected.

I'll bet an autopsy of each would not be conclusive which was spinning & which wasn't.

For my money, I think I'll stick with BULLET DESIGN & accuracy being what causes the things in my scope to fall when I pull the trigger.

Barry
 
33% = .33

so .33 x a very small number = an even smaller number.......Is that the point you are trying to make?

You are correct, in that gelatin rarely tells the whole story. However, when you have the gelatin and the math, it makes for a convincing argument. Empirical field observations are useful, however they are very subjective and frequently filled with bias from personal preference.

Barry makes a good argument and his conclusion that bullet design and accuracy are the most important; is bang on.
John
 
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I just don't see where studies have qualified that that a bullet does APPCRECIABLY more damage.

The bullet is ROUND, so therefore, if it is punching straight through, or spinning while it creates the wound channel, it just does not tip the scales enough to realistically produce more damage.

If you take the simplist form of this problem....A ROUND ball.

Barry


Your theory only holds if you hold that the bullet is round and STAYS round. We're talking about hunting bullets that expand and specifically bullets that fragment into several pieces such as the 40gr Vmax.

Specifically we're talking about mohunter's post here, and then the following post which is pcammo's response:
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so from what jack roberts is saying, if i were to be able to have a 40gr. v-max shoot accurately in a 1-9 twist, i would actually be better with the 1-9 over the 1-12.



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The difference in twist will show NO appreciable difference in terminal performance. If you want to try light, rapidly expanding bullets and your Savage does not like one brand...then try another brand until you get what makes you happy. If your average shot is only 50 yds, then only marginal accuracy is perfectly acceptable.
John



 
So a 40 gr Vmax shot through a 1-9 twist will do more damage & theoretically put a coyote down better than the same 40 gr Vmax shot through a 1-12 twister?

I would think that given the same ballistics of the cartridge fired through both, you would be in a dead heat...

I also think that an inch of barrel length would put WAY more difference on the same cartridge than any rate of twist could do.
I'm talking "practical" hunting here with this.

My opinion, only....The difference 50 fps would make in the bullet would be FAR more drastic on the terminal performance than any rate of twist.
I don't see where splitting those type hairs would make a difference in even 1 out of 100 coyotes that I kill.
 
It is the additional centrifugal force acting on the faster spinning bullet that makes it expand faster after expansion has started. I agree that RPM makes no difference until the bullet starts to expand. The difference in twist and expansion is very easy to see in the field if two rifles of different twist are shooting the same bullet at the same speed. The amount of air-time and the number of pieces the target breaks into is significantly different.

Jack
 
The effect is probably more noticable to the eye on smaller varmints like prarie dogs and ground squirrels, but the effect of additional RPMs is still there on coyotes. It's like a grenade goes off inside the coyote's vitals turning everything to goo, and a vitals shot is almost guraneed to be DRT, and I mean DRT usually not even a death wiggle.
 


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