saw coyote stalking calves tonight

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To elks, I am basically saying that humans are VERY greedy creatures. We took over the earth and claimed everything (including land) as ours. That doesn't seem right.



Yep, us humans took over everything, and took domination over all things including animals.........Dude, have you ever read The Bible?
 
Pack99, when you've lived in another mans shoes, namely the ranchers, you'll understand why they/we are protective of our calves. Your "if I was" explains it all. I would bet if you had sweat equity and dollars invested you would have a different opinion on this matter.

As far as humans being greedy, I have to agree, it started in the garden of eden and we got booted out because of it. Since man was given dominion over the earth, encroachment on the wild animals territories was/is imminent.

I agree with GC about the coyotes looking for the milk enriched calf poo. I see hogs hanging out among the cows during calving season doing the same thing.
I never pass an opportunity to kill a coyote when they are hanging out around the cows, its much easier than being a mind reader.
 
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999-when someone gets this good coyote bad coyote deal perfected and gives me a 100 percent foolproof way to tell livestock killing coyotes from ones that never will, I promise to only shoot the bad ones,LOL, till then any coyote around a calving pasture is fair game!
 
Go pack999 go!

You almost have me convinced that humans are indeed ruining the earth and we need to get rid of them...
 
Elks, If you don't think the white man came over hear and took the land from the Indians than you never paid much attention in class. I can understand you taking some of Pack999 post and using it, but look at the whole post. If you think the Indian's were worst conservationist than we than how do you explain the bison being gone. I can go on all day and argue this point. Now I think Pack999 is saying that the yote is just trying to stay alive and we would do the same if we were in his shoes. The man feels a little compassion for the animal. Rick
 
Pack999,
the only part of your first post that I did not agree with was your assignment of fault. Coyotes nor ranchers are at fault for being true to their natures. I am glad that, as a hunter, you are are compassionate toward animals. Do not let anyone bully that from you. Balance is very important.
Hidalgo,
God DID give man dominion over the beasts of the field and and forest. Responsible stewardship was part of the package.
Elks,
you are a school teacher. I know you do not berate your students in class with the likes of this;
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You feel like the indians? You are obivously not very smart.


Educate the young man rather than ridicule him with references to morphine use and a lack of intelligence. Shame on you.

Missouri, surprisingly to me, is the 4th or 5th largest cattle producing state. When I moved there I approached the manager or owner of every ranch that I could, offering to remove their problem coyotes in exchange for calling privileges on their land. Everyone of them, without exception, stated that they had never lost a calf to a coyote. All said that the coyotes would hang around birthing cows waiting for a chance at the placenta and of course they lapped up the steaming colostrum rich poo. I have seen them follow wobbly calves that were as small as the coyotes licking the runny goo off the calves fanny and tail. I have read that the licking will sometimes escalate to chewing and that they will sometimes remove the entire tail. I have never seen that and I have never talked to anyone who has.
Most of the MO. ranchers gave me permission to hunt their land because the coyotes were "pure death" on their turkeys and deer fawns.
I call on two adjacent ranches in south central Az. One of the ranchers tells me that he has never seen a coyote kill a calf. He knows that they clean up stillborns and he suspects that they have taken very young calves that the young heifers wander away from. The neighboring rancher tells me that he lost $8000 dollars worth of cattle two years ago. And so the rollercoaster goes.
 
Pack999 I am not sure where in Iowa you are from but you must have never tried to make a living off the land. I grew up in PA and my father was a farmer/dairy rancher.
If I was to have said to my father that the coyotes (that were INTRODUCED, NON-NATIVE, NON-WELCOME, UN-WANTED, UN-NEEDED) were just trying to survive and that we should just let them be he would have thrown me out of the house. My father taught me to respect the land and the animals but that you must live with and from them. But Food, Housing, Clothing, ETC... are not free. If we lost a cow/calf to predation we lost an opportunity to produce milk (money).
If you are old enough to work ask your boss to just keep half your check this week and see how it feels. If not ask your parents how they would fee if I came into your house and stole there 72 inch plasma TV. I will kill every coyote I am ask to kill by the rancher. If more move in I guess I get to kill more.
 
Rich in Az, your post is right on. With that said the true killers of most cattle are your local dogs that get to run free at night.The roller coaster goes on and on.
 
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Missouri, surprisingly to me, is the 4th or 5th largest cattle producing state. When I moved there I approached the manager or owner of every ranch that I could, offering to remove their problem coyotes in exchange for calling privileges on their land. Everyone of them, without exception, stated that they had never lost a calf to a coyote. All said that the coyotes would hang around birthing cows waiting for a chance at the placenta and of course they lapped up the steaming colostrum rich poo. I have seen them follow wobbly calves that were as small as the coyotes licking the runny goo off the calves fanny and tail. I have read that the licking will sometimes escalate to chewing and that they will sometimes remove the entire tail. I have never seen that and I have never talked to anyone who has.
Most of the MO. ranchers gave me permission to hunt their land because the coyotes were "pure death" on their turkeys and deer fawns.



Pretty much my experience here too. Once in a great while I'll hear about coyotes getting a calf, but not that often. I've been told of coyotes getting the calf as it is being born, going in and grabbing, harrassing, and doing enough damage that the calf dies during the birthing process. Then coming back for the carcass after the mother abandons the now dead calf. I've also heard of the licking growing to biting, then full fledged attacks by some coyotes. That is those that don't get stomped by a mother cow. I've seen cows chase coyotes out of a pasture several times. Coyotes can be hell on goats, sheep, and poultry. I think much of the problem lies with "assumptions." Someone finds a carcass and sees a coyote feeding on it. The assumption to the unknowing is that the coyote killed the animal. And maybe it did, depending upon the animal. However, there's a good chance the coyote didn't kill the animal and is only capatilizing on the smorgasboard its nose brought it to. But hey, smoking gun evidence is hard to overthrow in court... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

BTW, just for fun, Missouri is one of the top cattle producing states, along with hogs, and poultry also. There are more horses per capita in Missouri than any other state. Trivia... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
GC well I didn't know that about Missouri. Being a neighbor to your state I have been through it several times. Nice state. You got the whole bottom area in National Forest. I use to go up above Columbia and hunt turkeys every year. The top half of the state has a lot of pasture land. Interesting about the horses. Rick
 
It is true that not all coyotes are calf killers. In my area, more calves are killed by free roaming dogs than by coyotes. The problem is that every coyote is a "potential" calf killer, and once he gets started killing calves he isn't going to stop until the coyote gets dead. Now since the killer coyote does not wear a sign to identify it as the killer, sometimes several coyotes must be killed before the "right" one is killed. Since most coyotes will gladly feed on a fresh dead calf, even cutting a coyote open after you shoot it and checking stomach contents isn't always going to give the correct answer. There is nothing wrong with feeling a certain compassion for the coyotes, but to allow them to run rampant seems foolish.
 
Good research Rich Cronk. Yes I will be a senior this fall. I do live in town. I spend time outdoors and I live in the town where Wells ice cream is made, so there are plenty of dairies around. I understand about cattle. I do have a job. I work 20 hrs/week during school and 35 hrs/week during summer at a grocery store. I see that people are somewhat understanding where I am coming from. Rickyb has it right. He explained it a little better than I. And to elks, I would beat you in any intelligence test you can find. Where are you getting your info that Indians were wasteful? And if you got attacked by a lion or bitten by a rattlesnake I would call you a dumb*** for walking to close to a lion that you know is dangerous. Thanks to the few people that took a few minutes and put a little thought into what I was saying.
 
Just a bit of Indian history for any who care.

Most people don't realize that the indian way of hunting & fishing is to get them when they are at their most vulnerable state: They weren't doing it for fun, they were providing food for their family.

The walleye and musky swim slowly at the surface or in shallow streams when spawning. You can practically reach in and grab a 25lb fish.
Spear fishing them during spawning is a very large controvery in WI. But thats how they did it 200 years ago and thats whats allowed thru the treaty. The walleye and musky population is WAY down now.

Not quite as nice as hollywood would have us believe.

The Indian population just wasn't large enought to do damage to the environment. If it was, then it would have suffered.

Best regards,
 
Take it easy, pack. This last post of yours impressed me far more than your first, which was merely repeating urban propaganda clichés. Your candor makes you seem teachable, a fine characteristic in anyone.

OK, where were Indians wasteful? How about when they drove a herd of buffalo over a cliff in an era with no refrigeration or other ways to preserve all of the meat? All humans are fallible, especially at a societal level. Don’t idealize anyone or any group to the point of turning a blind eye to reality. Take the good, but don’t deny there is any bad. That’s a good idea here at PM as well as with Indians or anyone else.

Incidentally, with abundant buffalo etc. though driving a herd of buffalo over a cliff was wasteful it was efficient and pretty clever, and I’d join them if I lived in their day. In that context it doesn't make them bad conservationists so much as realists to whom conservation as we know it was irelevant to survival.

I don't get the lion and rattlesnake analogy. If you are good enough to know when you are walking close to a lion or a rattle snake, please walk with me when I hunt the west. I've stepped within easy striking distance of rattlers before realizing they were there, and had a lion stalk me to within 21 feet. At least I know of one lion that close, and if any have been closer I don't know about it.

I appreciate your spirit and concern for wildlife. Don't lose that as you temper received information by field experience with real nature and real wild animals. Hope you get to enjoy lots of such experience.

added later: didn't see yotmeister's post tiell after I posted. Agree that the Indians didn't have the population nor technology to exterminate a species or they would have if they continued the same harvest tactics. In that case, they woiuld have probably (hopefully) developed some wider conservation ethics, as modern society has.
 
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Okanagon, Have you ever heard of pemmican? They smoke, dry, and salt their meat. That is how they preserve it. Their jerky lasted a surprisingly long time. I was refering back to elks post about sending various inconvenionces my way. I guess maybe rattlesnakes was a stretch considering they are tough to spot. You must be a well traveled man.
 
If I had known your age I would have been more gentle. But for the record and many of the above posts.

I dont feel sorry for the Indians any more than I feel sorry for any other country, nation, land mass that is no longer under the control of the aboriginal settlers. I dont think there are any. Nor do I feel sorry for the Quakers thrown out of England, Australia being populated by criminal rejects from europe. I dont feel sorry for Briton being conquered by then Norse, Germans, Anglos, or French. Or if it is true I dont feel sorry for the then future nation of America being "invaded" by the Indians(mongoloids)from Siberia/Asia walking accross the land bridge and down through Canada.

I strongly dislike terms like white, black, Indian, Japanese, etc. to me all those terms are Racist. There is only one race, the Human race. I prefer the terms Caucasoid, Mongoloid and Negroid other terms bring in too much garbage related to goverenment and religion. Of course this dates my education as these terms are no longer "acceptable".

The best things about humans are the animal tendencies, everytime in history a human starts thinking they are smart there is big problems; ie; religion and Govt. Since I see the best of us being the most animal, why dont we have territory? Why is it you see humans as "invading"?

The last thing we need are more national parks, last time I went to one I was so disgusted at what is being called natural I nearly puked. They are just as "natural" as the little ranger can make them, complete with B&B's, park and rides, buses and thousands of tourists. Now a 'Wilderness area' like the Frank Church area in Idaho, that is a great idea.

And lastly, Yes, I have actually shot a coyote pulling on the front leg of a calf being born. That said I still think a predator eats the easiest thing they can find. Predators dont try to prove they are tough, they are just hungry.

I am an animal, my will to survive is strong, and I have as much right to survive as any other animal and as much right to 'territory'.
CD
 
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pack999,
The only research I needed on your background was to read your posts. The liberal Democrats have done a fine job of brain washing our young people by the horse pucky they teach in public schools. I was a Police/school liaison officer during school years of 1974, 1975 and 1976. They call em resource officers now. I also spent several years as a detective in our Youth Bureau, so I am fairly well schooled in the ways of teen agers and the reasons they feel the way they do. I applaud the fact that you are working a part time job, continuing your education and spending some valuable time in the outdoors. By the way, my coyote research was done by spending a lot of years out in coyote country. The coyote can teach a man many things. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
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Okanagon, Have you ever heard of pemmican? They smoke, dry, and salt their meat. That is how they preserve it. Their jerky lasted a surprisingly long time. I was refering back to elks post about sending various inconvenionces my way. I guess maybe rattlesnakes was a stretch considering they are tough to spot. You must be a well traveled man.



Pemmican isn't bad the way the old people made it in central Montana. I'm not crazy about it but it keeps well. Modern spices and salt perk it up a lot to my taste.

But a small herd of 30 buffalo that averaged 500 lbs. of meat per animal produces 15,000 pounds of meat. Those numbers are on the low side. Even trying their best, a lot of meat would spoil before it could be cut up, hung and dried for making pemmican.

At Head-Smashed-In Buffalo Jump in Alberta, the bones piles at the bottom of the cliff are 35 feet deep, and most of those animals were not even pulled out of the pile to cut up. A herd of 100 would produce 50,000 lbs. of fresh meat. Pemmican requires marrow, grease and usually berries as well as time among the ingredients to make. They used as much as they could but tons went to waste by those methods, spoiling before they could cut it up to dry, etc.

For a group of 100 people which is a large band for hunter gatherers, 30 buffalo is easily 150 lbs of meat per person to process, including infants and warriors. Storing and transporting such quantities also reaches impossible numbers pretty quickly, though the weight will be a fraction of that when dried or jerked.

Their intent was not to waste but that was an inevitable consequence at times.

And those folks did not have salt in enough quantities to preserve meat until after European technology. That's why they ate as much fresh meat as possible on the spot, then smoked and dried as much of the rest as they could. I've eaten jerky done by original methods, and I far prefer modern salted & spiced jerky.

In modern times I've seen piles of fresh fish left to rot, when more were caught than could be used. I have far more problem with that, and in my experience, such modern waste has usually been by irresponsible young men who were having fun catching the trout, salmon, etc. or shooting extra animals.

I'm not trying to put down Indian meat harvesting practices, nor you. You've got a good head and can use it. We're on a tangent to the original topic, which as been covered pretty well.

I'm surprised that you mentioned my travel. Perceptive. I have gotten to travel a lot for a boy who grew up on a farm in a small town area. I wanted to travel, I have gotten around quite a bit, but there is a lot more I'd like to see. I'd enjoy a day with you on the Tuchodi River or on a ridge in the Seven Devils of Idaho, or a catfish pond for that matter. Good hunting.
 
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