Why isn't it more common to hear about folks using self defense rounds in .223 for coyotes? After watching ballistics test over several different rounds on YouTube it seems that some of these would be fairly popular in a cartridge so many people question the lethality of for hunting. Lots of "barrier blind" talk being thrown around on those videos. That would take care of surface splash and whatnot. Seems to me a lot of these self defense rounds would work great for coyotes.
Self defense rounds for coyotes?
- Thread starter OKRattler
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bowhunter57
Well-known member
Typical "self defense" rounds are 380, 9mm, 38 spl., 40 S&W and 45acp. I know guys and I myself use a CCW pistol (in open carry) for finishing shots on coyotes, but would never use it as a "main weapon" for coyotes.
It's nice to have a secondary pistol for finishing shots, instead of wasting expensive rifle and/or shotgun ammo.
Bowhunter57
It's nice to have a secondary pistol for finishing shots, instead of wasting expensive rifle and/or shotgun ammo.
Bowhunter57
Urimaginaryfrnd
New member
If I had to guess I would say the OP was looking for a discussion on selection of ammo in.223 caliber for hunting coyotes. While the military uses mostly green tip ball ammo I tend to think most hunters prefer a soft point or hollow point expanding bullet. We have a lot of choices in the .223 caliber from very light very fast bullets to fairly heavy 75, 77, 80 gr that tend to retain significantly more energy at longer distance than their light fast brothers. While the 80 gr is a superb long range choice the down side is that it is too long to run in most magazines and must be loaded single shot. Bullet design and construction also play a huge factor and Barnes copper hollowpoint bullets hold together and penetrate extremely well as do Nosler partition bullets. One also must consider the desired end result because if you are hunting for the fur you don't want something that will blow a four inch hole going out the far side and if you are not after the fur the exit hole is not an issue.
Guys feel free to step in here and add your thoughts on what your favorite .223 ammo is for coyotes and why you prefer that specific choice. Any info you have collected on exit wound size or the lack of an exit wound or photos would be helpful.
Guys feel free to step in here and add your thoughts on what your favorite .223 ammo is for coyotes and why you prefer that specific choice. Any info you have collected on exit wound size or the lack of an exit wound or photos would be helpful.
Originally Posted By: ackleymanSelf defense for coyotes...what a hoot. I say just lift your leg and let them run by. As a rule, they don't give a hoot about attacking a human. I have had two brush my shotgun barrel as it sat in my lap....they never even slowed down.
Not for self defense against a coyote type scenario. More of a shoot clear through a coyote length ways type scenario.
Not for self defense against a coyote type scenario. More of a shoot clear through a coyote length ways type scenario.
Originally Posted By: Plant.Onecould you give us a specific example of which barrier blind personal defense ammo yyou're referring to?
this will make the discussion much simpler to address
I watched several. I think Speer Gold Dot and Hornady Critical Defense were a few I remember hearing "barrier blind" on. Pretty much anything designed to shoot through a windshield or car door and still capable of killing something pretty much I think is what they mean by that. A coyotes hip or shoulder ain't nowhere what a windshield is so I'd imagine surface splash wouldn't be an issue with those particular bullets. A coyote running straight away might be worse off getting hit with one of those instead of a 50gr. V-Max as well.
this will make the discussion much simpler to address
I watched several. I think Speer Gold Dot and Hornady Critical Defense were a few I remember hearing "barrier blind" on. Pretty much anything designed to shoot through a windshield or car door and still capable of killing something pretty much I think is what they mean by that. A coyotes hip or shoulder ain't nowhere what a windshield is so I'd imagine surface splash wouldn't be an issue with those particular bullets. A coyote running straight away might be worse off getting hit with one of those instead of a 50gr. V-Max as well.
Originally Posted By: UrimaginaryfrndIf I had to guess I would say the OP was looking for a discussion on selection of ammo in.223 caliber for hunting coyotes. While the military uses mostly green tip ball ammo I tend to think most hunters prefer a soft point or hollow point expanding bullet. We have a lot of choices in the .223 caliber from very light very fast bullets to fairly heavy 75, 77, 80 gr that tend to retain significantly more energy at longer distance than their light fast brothers. While the 80 gr is a superb long range choice the down side is that it is too long to run in most magazines and must be loaded single shot. Bullet design and construction also play a huge factor and Barnes copper hollowpoint bullets hold together and penetrate extremely well as do Nosler partition bullets. One also must consider the desired end result because if you are hunting for the fur you don't want something that will blow a four inch hole going out the far side and if you are not after the fur the exit hole is not an issue.
Guys feel free to step in here and add your thoughts on what your favorite .223 ammo is for coyotes and why you prefer that specific choice. Any info you have collected on exit wound size or the lack of an exit wound or photos would be helpful.
I'm a guy that saves fur so I'm all about not blowing a big hole in one. But on the same token less than perfect shots happen. And I'd much rather have a dead coyote with a huge hole in it than a coyote that ran off to die. The .223 seems to be a big discussion here as far as spinners and runners go. I'd guess most of which are shot with a light weight bullet that's highly frangible. You don't hear much on the opposite end of the spectrum and the performance of heavier well built bullets that are designed to break bone and turn organs to liquid.
Guys feel free to step in here and add your thoughts on what your favorite .223 ammo is for coyotes and why you prefer that specific choice. Any info you have collected on exit wound size or the lack of an exit wound or photos would be helpful.
I'm a guy that saves fur so I'm all about not blowing a big hole in one. But on the same token less than perfect shots happen. And I'd much rather have a dead coyote with a huge hole in it than a coyote that ran off to die. The .223 seems to be a big discussion here as far as spinners and runners go. I'd guess most of which are shot with a light weight bullet that's highly frangible. You don't hear much on the opposite end of the spectrum and the performance of heavier well built bullets that are designed to break bone and turn organs to liquid.
Originally Posted By: tripod3Another bullet thread that should have a long life with many interesting turns.
Hopefully just a lot of positive or at least informative feedback on heavier grain bullets. GC seems to have had good luck with the Federal Fusion and TSX. I know these "specialty rounds" are a little more on the expensive side which probably sways people that plan on shooting coyotes away from them. But I figured maybe there were a few out there who like to try new bullets just to say they did. I've shot and killed plenty of coyotes with the .223 to know what has worked best for me but I don't mind testing more out.
Hopefully just a lot of positive or at least informative feedback on heavier grain bullets. GC seems to have had good luck with the Federal Fusion and TSX. I know these "specialty rounds" are a little more on the expensive side which probably sways people that plan on shooting coyotes away from them. But I figured maybe there were a few out there who like to try new bullets just to say they did. I've shot and killed plenty of coyotes with the .223 to know what has worked best for me but I don't mind testing more out.
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Originally Posted By: OKRattlerOriginally Posted By: tripod3Another bullet thread that should have a long life with many interesting turns.
Hopefully just a lot of positive or at least informative feedback on heavier grain bullets. GC seems to have had good luck with the Federal Fusion and TSX. I know these "specialty rounds" are a little more on the expensive side which probably sways people that plan on shooting coyotes away from them. But I figured maybe there were a few out there who like to try new bullets just to say they did. I've shot and killed plenty of coyotes with the .223 to know what has worked best for me but I don't mind testing more out.
Terminal ballistics is all about transferring energy into the target. IF a bullet passes through a target it did not transfer all of it's energy into the target. Your top shelf "defensive" rounds are designed to transfer energy into the target. They use ballistics gel as an approximation to see how far into the target the bullet goes and the expansion characteristics to determine the effectiveness of the bullet design and load.
That being said, the rules are no different for predator hunting. You are trying to transfer energy into the target. But on a slim target, you have less density and therefore a much higher probability of pass through. Some bullet manufacturers will try to solve this problem by using a more "explosive" or rapidly expanding bullet design to achieve their goal. But that makes some assumptions and ignores some realities. It assumes that you are hitting soft tissue and not bone. But we all know that happens, hence the endless discussions around "surface splashes."
If a round is designed to impart enough energy to take down a man then it should have no problem with even the biggest coyote at maybe 50lbs. I have seen flat points, spire points, poly tipped, hollow points, frangibles and even FMJ's take down coyotes. Some just do it better than others. But better is a subjective term. Those who want fur would not agree that blowing a softball sized hole in a coyote is better. Those who are just looking to control populations would not agree that a bullet that won't make an exit hole but might result in having to track a coyote until it succumbs to it's injuries is better.
There is a LOT of "theoretical" discussions in the "defensive" firearms world because there isn't always data to support theories. In our world, fur on the ground tends to be definitive.
Hopefully just a lot of positive or at least informative feedback on heavier grain bullets. GC seems to have had good luck with the Federal Fusion and TSX. I know these "specialty rounds" are a little more on the expensive side which probably sways people that plan on shooting coyotes away from them. But I figured maybe there were a few out there who like to try new bullets just to say they did. I've shot and killed plenty of coyotes with the .223 to know what has worked best for me but I don't mind testing more out.
Terminal ballistics is all about transferring energy into the target. IF a bullet passes through a target it did not transfer all of it's energy into the target. Your top shelf "defensive" rounds are designed to transfer energy into the target. They use ballistics gel as an approximation to see how far into the target the bullet goes and the expansion characteristics to determine the effectiveness of the bullet design and load.
That being said, the rules are no different for predator hunting. You are trying to transfer energy into the target. But on a slim target, you have less density and therefore a much higher probability of pass through. Some bullet manufacturers will try to solve this problem by using a more "explosive" or rapidly expanding bullet design to achieve their goal. But that makes some assumptions and ignores some realities. It assumes that you are hitting soft tissue and not bone. But we all know that happens, hence the endless discussions around "surface splashes."
If a round is designed to impart enough energy to take down a man then it should have no problem with even the biggest coyote at maybe 50lbs. I have seen flat points, spire points, poly tipped, hollow points, frangibles and even FMJ's take down coyotes. Some just do it better than others. But better is a subjective term. Those who want fur would not agree that blowing a softball sized hole in a coyote is better. Those who are just looking to control populations would not agree that a bullet that won't make an exit hole but might result in having to track a coyote until it succumbs to it's injuries is better.
There is a LOT of "theoretical" discussions in the "defensive" firearms world because there isn't always data to support theories. In our world, fur on the ground tends to be definitive.
Originally Posted By: GeebI hunt coyotes with hornady critical defense out of a DD mk18. However, I am in the south and my shots are usually less than 200 yards.
Normally I don't shoot much further than that even in pretty open country. How have the Critical Defense performed so far as far as putting coyotes down and fur damage?
Normally I don't shoot much further than that even in pretty open country. How have the Critical Defense performed so far as far as putting coyotes down and fur damage?
Originally Posted By: SnowmanMoOriginally Posted By: OKRattlerOriginally Posted By: tripod3Another bullet thread that should have a long life with many interesting turns.
Hopefully just a lot of positive or at least informative feedback on heavier grain bullets. GC seems to have had good luck with the Federal Fusion and TSX. I know these "specialty rounds" are a little more on the expensive side which probably sways people that plan on shooting coyotes away from them. But I figured maybe there were a few out there who like to try new bullets just to say they did. I've shot and killed plenty of coyotes with the .223 to know what has worked best for me but I don't mind testing more out.
Terminal ballistics is all about transferring energy into the target. IF a bullet passes through a target it did not transfer all of it's energy into the target. Your top shelf "defensive" rounds are designed to transfer energy into the target. They use ballistics gel as an approximation to see how far into the target the bullet goes and the expansion characteristics to determine the effectiveness of the bullet design and load.
That being said, the rules are no different for predator hunting. You are trying to transfer energy into the target. But on a slim target, you have less density and therefore a much higher probability of pass through. Some bullet manufacturers will try to solve this problem by using a more "explosive" or rapidly expanding bullet design to achieve their goal. But that makes some assumptions and ignores some realities. It assumes that you are hitting soft tissue and not bone. But we all know that happens, hence the endless discussions around "surface splashes."
If a round is designed to impart enough energy to take down a man then it should have no problem with even the biggest coyote at maybe 50lbs. I have seen flat points, spire points, poly tipped, hollow points, frangibles and even FMJ's take down coyotes. Some just do it better than others. But better is a subjective term. Those who want fur would not agree that blowing a softball sized hole in a coyote is better. Those who are just looking to control populations would not agree that a bullet that won't make an exit hole but might result in having to track a coyote until it succumbs to it's injuries is better.
There is a LOT of "theoretical" discussions in the "defensive" firearms world because there isn't always data to support theories. In our world, fur on the ground tends to be definitive.
As far as broadside shots go I don't expect too much of a difference in performance compared to anything else I've used. After all a dead coyote is a dead coyote under ideal conditions. I'd be more interested in seeing how one of these bullets holds up to a coyote running straight away or quartering away. Those have always been the ones that weren't a one shot kill a majority of the time in my experience.
I can always sew up a pelt is how I look at fur damage. I'd much rather do that than not have a dead coyote in the back of the truck. Fur friendly is great don't get me wrong but at the end of the day a coyote with a big hole blown through it is better than one than ran off to die.
Hopefully just a lot of positive or at least informative feedback on heavier grain bullets. GC seems to have had good luck with the Federal Fusion and TSX. I know these "specialty rounds" are a little more on the expensive side which probably sways people that plan on shooting coyotes away from them. But I figured maybe there were a few out there who like to try new bullets just to say they did. I've shot and killed plenty of coyotes with the .223 to know what has worked best for me but I don't mind testing more out.
Terminal ballistics is all about transferring energy into the target. IF a bullet passes through a target it did not transfer all of it's energy into the target. Your top shelf "defensive" rounds are designed to transfer energy into the target. They use ballistics gel as an approximation to see how far into the target the bullet goes and the expansion characteristics to determine the effectiveness of the bullet design and load.
That being said, the rules are no different for predator hunting. You are trying to transfer energy into the target. But on a slim target, you have less density and therefore a much higher probability of pass through. Some bullet manufacturers will try to solve this problem by using a more "explosive" or rapidly expanding bullet design to achieve their goal. But that makes some assumptions and ignores some realities. It assumes that you are hitting soft tissue and not bone. But we all know that happens, hence the endless discussions around "surface splashes."
If a round is designed to impart enough energy to take down a man then it should have no problem with even the biggest coyote at maybe 50lbs. I have seen flat points, spire points, poly tipped, hollow points, frangibles and even FMJ's take down coyotes. Some just do it better than others. But better is a subjective term. Those who want fur would not agree that blowing a softball sized hole in a coyote is better. Those who are just looking to control populations would not agree that a bullet that won't make an exit hole but might result in having to track a coyote until it succumbs to it's injuries is better.
There is a LOT of "theoretical" discussions in the "defensive" firearms world because there isn't always data to support theories. In our world, fur on the ground tends to be definitive.
As far as broadside shots go I don't expect too much of a difference in performance compared to anything else I've used. After all a dead coyote is a dead coyote under ideal conditions. I'd be more interested in seeing how one of these bullets holds up to a coyote running straight away or quartering away. Those have always been the ones that weren't a one shot kill a majority of the time in my experience.
I can always sew up a pelt is how I look at fur damage. I'd much rather do that than not have a dead coyote in the back of the truck. Fur friendly is great don't get me wrong but at the end of the day a coyote with a big hole blown through it is better than one than ran off to die.
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