Self defense rounds for coyotes?

Originally Posted By: GCAny of the .223 bullets suitable for deer and hogs will fold up a coyote going away from you handily. Are you over thinking this?
I figure just like anything else one performs much better than the other. It just doesn't seem as though the small caliber big game style bullets and self defense bullets have really gained a big following in the predator huntin world. And just like everything else that pertains to predator huntin there's nothing better than first hand experience.

The best thing a guy could do is buy a box or two and try them out. I just didn't figure I better waste my time or money if I'll essentially be shooting a soft target compared to what they're meant to be shot at and end up crippling coyotes. If it'll just be like shooting a FMJ there's not much point in testing them.
 
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Originally Posted By: OKRattler I figure just like anything else one performs much better than the other.......The best thing a guy could do is buy a box or two and try them out. I just didn't figure I better waste my time or money if I'll essentially be shooting a soft target compared to what they're meant to be shot at and end up crippling coyotes. If it'll just be like shooting a FMJ there's not much point in testing them.

And that’s the beauty of these forums, being able to ask or hope for discussion (like you did) if anyone has personal experience with self defense rounds for coyotes. What better way to learn than from others with experience. Sure can save a lot of time, effort and money in experimenting.

 
Originally Posted By: 6mm06
Originally Posted By: OKRattler I figure just like anything else one performs much better than the other.......The best thing a guy could do is buy a box or two and try them out. I just didn't figure I better waste my time or money if I'll essentially be shooting a soft target compared to what they're meant to be shot at and end up crippling coyotes. If it'll just be like shooting a FMJ there's not much point in testing them.

And that’s the beauty of these forums, being able to ask or hope for discussion (like you did) if anyone has personal experience with self defense rounds for coyotes. What better way to learn than from others with experience. Sure can save a lot of time, effort and money in experimenting.


This is true. Although I've been a part of this forum for a while now and have been lucky enough to do a fair amount of calling and shot enough critters to know what has worked best for me,I'm open to learning from folks whether they've called up and killed thousands or have just started predator hunting. I won't discard any information about tactics I can use to become better or ways to improve the tools I already have to make me more successful. I'll never be too good to listen. There's always room for improvement. I don't know everything there is to know and most likely,never will. Predator hunting is a frustrating game. If I can cut corners just so I can get more fur in the back of the truck I'm definitely going to.

I don't like going in blind in any situation. I have more than a plan A or B in every aspect of my life.
 
Originally Posted By: HellgateAssuming a similar POI, maybe the first round needs to be the usual blow the insides apart round and the followup rounds (for the running shots in case you miss) be the deep punchers.

That's an interesting concept and a good idea I think. I've done similar with shotgun shells before and it worked out perfectly. Smaller shot goes first,bigger for follow up. I've also done the opposite in States I've hunted that allowed larger buckshot. Less pellets meant they had to be close. More pellets went last where a coyote getting further by the second required a denser pattern to run through.
 
Originally Posted By: GCDid I somehow say something wrong? I promise I had no snarky intention.
I don't think so. I wasn't offended by anything anyone has said. I did get a laugh out of ackleyman's response though. Which hopefully he was joking and didn't really think I wanted to know about taking defensive actions against coyotes. Things get lost in translation over the internet sometimes so I don't know. But that was funny.
 
Thanks, sometimes the written word on a flat screen isn't so easy to understand. Just wanted to clear up any potential misunderstanding.
 
Originally Posted By: OKRattlerOriginally Posted By: GCDid I somehow say something wrong? I promise I had no snarky intention.
I don't think so. I wasn't offended by anything anyone has said. I did get a laugh out of ackleyman's response though. Which hopefully he was joking and didn't really think I wanted to know about taking defensive actions against coyotes. Things get lost in translation over the internet sometimes so I don't know. But that was funny.

Yeah, the screen doesn't always properly translate context.

Originally Posted By: HellgateThe SD bullets are geared for human targets and thus would be expected to have deeper penetration of a larger torso. They might be a little harder to open on a coyote broadside double lung shot.

"Defensive" bullets have often followed their hunting brethren in design and other considerations. Take the Black Talon. It started off life as a hunting bullet. Then through shrewd marketing, Winchester added the Lubalox coating, creating the "Black" in the Black Talon. The issues were the same, hunters and self defensive shooters needed a bullet that would rapidly expand but do so while still maintaining their original weight. The "talon" was a crown that allowed the bullet to rapidly "petal" without breaking off the petals. The "lethality" of the the Talons never increased over their original design because of the coating. In fact, they are still manufactured but under a different brand name, such as the Ranger or the SXT brand names.

Humans and animals like coyotes, goats, deer, etc are similar in design and construction of their vascular systems and their chest cavities. The "depth" of penetration argument comes from a misunderstanding of the human chest cavity. Designing a bullet to go through 6-12 inches of ballistics gel is unrealistic because the human chest cavity isn't filled with gel. It's hollow. You need to get through the chest wall, get your resulting expansion within that time so that it can continue to do damage as it passes through the vitals, just like with a predator. If the expansion is too rapid, you get surface splashing, too slow and you get [beeep] through. Just like with coyotes.

Personally, I don't want to catch any bullet to try and disprove that theory. Any bullet that will put down a coyote will do just as much to a man and vice versa.
 
Originally Posted By: OKRattlerOriginally Posted By: GeebI hunt coyotes with hornady critical defense out of a DD mk18. However, I am in the south and my shots are usually less than 200 yards.
Normally I don't shoot much further than that even in pretty open country. How have the Critical Defense performed so far as far as putting coyotes down and fur damage?
I shoot the critical defense because they have a heavier bullet which stabilizes better out of a short (pistol length) barrel. It has proven to be a very accurate round at moderate yardage (I've only shot them out to 160 yards) out of the 10.3" barrel.

They do produce a pretty good hole, but I do not keep hides so I haven't really studied the holes that in-depth.
 
It blows me away how the name on a box of ammo can really get people to buy that ammo or not buy that ammo.

Right now Rogers Sporting Goods has Federal Heavyweight Turkey 1-1/4 oz loads in #6 and #7 shot for #2.00 per shell. I contacted a guy looking for some of the old Remington Wingmaster HD Waterfowl loads. He was willing to pay $3.00 to $3.50 per shell for the 12g/cc Rem HD loads that are about 10% denser than lead.

I told him about the Federal Heavyweight Turkey loads that are 15g/cc and are about 35% denser than lead. He didn't want them because they had a turkey on the box he wanted loads with a duck on the box.

Quite a few years ago Bass Pro Shops had Remington Ultimate Home Defense HD BB 2-3/4" shells on sale for $10.00 for ten shells and they even got down to $8.00 for ten shells. I tried to get coyote hunters to buy them and a few did.

I guess all the guys that didn't buy them thought they wouldn't work on coyotes because they were only 2-3/4" shells and they didn't have the word coyote on the box.
http://www.predatormastersforums.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2068819

After Winchester quit selling the Black Talon ammo I traded 50 Black Talon 9mm shells to a guy for 300 Speer Lawman 9mm hollow points.
 
Originally Posted By: SnowmanMoOriginally Posted By: OKRattlerOriginally Posted By: GCDid I somehow say something wrong? I promise I had no snarky intention.
I don't think so. I wasn't offended by anything anyone has said. I did get a laugh out of ackleyman's response though. Which hopefully he was joking and didn't really think I wanted to know about taking defensive actions against coyotes. Things get lost in translation over the internet sometimes so I don't know. But that was funny.

Yeah, the screen doesn't always properly translate context.

Originally Posted By: HellgateThe SD bullets are geared for human targets and thus would be expected to have deeper penetration of a larger torso. They might be a little harder to open on a coyote broadside double lung shot.

"Defensive" bullets have often followed their hunting brethren in design and other considerations. Take the Black Talon. It started off life as a hunting bullet. Then through shrewd marketing, Winchester added the Lubalox coating, creating the "Black" in the Black Talon. The issues were the same, hunters and self defensive shooters needed a bullet that would rapidly expand but do so while still maintaining their original weight. The "talon" was a crown that allowed the bullet to rapidly "petal" without breaking off the petals. The "lethality" of the the Talons never increased over their original design because of the coating. In fact, they are still manufactured but under a different brand name, such as the Ranger or the SXT brand names.

Humans and animals like coyotes, goats, deer, etc are similar in design and construction of their vascular systems and their chest cavities. The "depth" of penetration argument comes from a misunderstanding of the human chest cavity. Designing a bullet to go through 6-12 inches of ballistics gel is unrealistic because the human chest cavity isn't filled with gel. It's hollow. You need to get through the chest wall, get your resulting expansion within that time so that it can continue to do damage as it passes through the vitals, just like with a predator. If the expansion is too rapid, you get surface splashing, too slow and you get [beeep] through. Just like with coyotes.

Personally, I don't want to catch any bullet to try and disprove that theory. Any bullet that will put down a coyote will do just as much to a man and vice versa.
I know what you mean. I like the videos where they're shooting through something hard placed in front of ballistics gel to get somewhat of an idea of how that particular round may perform shooting through bone and things of that nature. I figure a makeshift car door or something would be more likely to deform a bullet than a coyotes shoulder so I really find those interesting instead of just seeing a path through ballistics gel itself.
 
Originally Posted By: GeebOriginally Posted By: OKRattlerOriginally Posted By: GeebI hunt coyotes with hornady critical defense out of a DD mk18. However, I am in the south and my shots are usually less than 200 yards.
Normally I don't shoot much further than that even in pretty open country. How have the Critical Defense performed so far as far as putting coyotes down and fur damage?
I shoot the critical defense because they have a heavier bullet which stabilizes better out of a short (pistol length) barrel. It has proven to be a very accurate round at moderate yardage (I've only shot them out to 160 yards) out of the 10.3" barrel.

They do produce a pretty good hole, but I do not keep hides so I haven't really studied the holes that in-depth.
That's good enough for me. Especially if you haven't found those bullets to be bad about surface splash and whatnot. A coyote with a pretty good hole in it can be fixed. I sold a coyote that had a football sized hole in it and two the size of a baseball for the same amount as a frozen coyote you could barely tell had been shot. It just took a little more work is all. Not that I want to produce more work for myself but I figure I'd rather be sewing up a coyote pelt than tracking a wounded one down. If that makes any sense. I'd rather do neither but I'd choose that over the other any day of the week.
 
Originally Posted By: derbyacresbobIt blows me away how the name on a box of ammo can really get people to buy that ammo or not buy that ammo.

Right now Rogers Sporting Goods has Federal Heavyweight Turkey 1-1/4 oz loads in #6 and #7 shot for #2.00 per shell. I contacted a guy looking for some of the old Remington Wingmaster HD Waterfowl loads. He was willing to pay $3.00 to $3.50 per shell for the 12g/cc Rem HD loads that are about 10% denser than lead.

I told him about the Federal Heavyweight Turkey loads that are 15g/cc and are about 35% denser than lead. He didn't want them because they had a turkey on the box he wanted loads with a duck on the box.

Quite a few years ago Bass Pro Shops had Remington Ultimate Home Defense HD BB 2-3/4" shells on sale for $10.00 for ten shells and they even got down to $8.00 for ten shells. I tried to get coyote hunters to buy them and a few did.

I guess all the guys that didn't buy them thought they wouldn't work on coyotes because they were only 2-3/4" shells and they didn't have the word coyote on the box.
http://www.predatormastersforums.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2068819

After Winchester quit selling the Black Talon ammo I traded 50 Black Talon 9mm shells to a guy for 300 Speer Lawman 9mm hollow points.
If it'll hammer a coyote and drop it stone dead more times than not I'll buy a box or two. It wouldn't bother me if it had a billy goat on the box if someone told me they'll roll a coyote. I've shot coyotes with bullets that had a prairie dog stamped on the box they came in before. If it works I'll give it a go.
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It don't bother me to try something different. A dead coyote is a dead coyote. Sometimes thinking outside the box is the best way to go.
 
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I agree, marketing ploys like labels, pics, catchy names don't appeal to me. I am after results. They could call it the PETA AMMO--drops coyotes faster than anti-hunter logic, and I would buy them IF they work.

Those tricks seem to work on "recreational shooters" but not actual shooters.

If I like the science behind the design and construction of a bullet, velocity, energy, accuracy, etc, I will give it a go. If it works, I will stick with them. If not, then they are just going to be function firing ammunition for my next range run.
 


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