Should Bush pardon Compean and Ramos

A

azmastablasta

New member
It is amazing to me rumors get started and actually take on a life of their own.I have found myself listening to the facts of this case from various media sources, including conservative talk show hosts proclaiming they were railroaded.I consider myself to be very patriotic and on the right end of the conservative spectrum.Naturally, I was offended by the treatment these guys received.I have served on a jury previously and was heartened by how seriously all the jury members took their duty.The case I served on was a civil case involving a land dispute and required 6 days of hearing,and two days deliberating.I found that some points I had missed were noticed by others and we all contributed to the verdict,and arrived at a decision.There was a wide range of people on the jury from laborers to a bank V.P. It gave me a good feeling for how our system is just.Then, I look at this case and wonder how the D.A. could be so good to turn an honest jury into a railroading mob.Fact is, he didn't.My research has developed a copy of the trial transcript and the D.A.s rebuttal to some of the myths surrounding this trial.The links are below.I will warn you that they are lengthy reading but VERY enlightening as to the facts the jury heard.

Bottom line in my assessment is both agents admitted in testimony that in broad daylight, after apprehending a drug smuggler,and finding him unarmed,they both fired a total of 15 rounds as he ran away.One round hit him in the butt.He fell on US soil and they made no attempt to apprehend him again,but immediately began picking up shell casings and tried to cover up the shooting.Other agents were there also and did not feel threatened and did not pull their weapons.

I guess the main question here is should we allow our law enforcement officers to shoot unarmed fleeing felons?Yes, he was here illegally,so is it ok to shoot illegal aliens?
Is it ok to shoot unarmed drug smugglers?Where do we draw the line,a jury heard the facts of this case and agreed that our laws were broken.I would agree that 10 and 11 year sentences seem a little steep, however the Judge had no choice due to sentencing guidelines.

What should W. do? Pardon,commute or let'er ride?


D.A.rebuttal
http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/txw/press_rele...4-25%202007.pdf


scroll down to bottom of link for trial transcripts
http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/txw/press_releases/Compean-Ramos/index.html
 
+1 Mr. Mister
they should be given a raise and all the overtime work they want.
I'd have aimed just a hair lower and made sure the next generation would have as many drug smugglers
 
As I understand the "Pardon" process, the "recipients must agree that they were lawfully convicted and admit to their guilt....

Perhaps the sentence should have been 10-12 years remedial marksmanship training. Dead drug dealers can tell no lies against you!!

Bob
 
Quote:
As I understand the "Pardon" process, the "recipients must agree that they were lawfully convicted and admit to their guilt....

Perhaps the sentence should have been 10-12 years remedial marksmanship training. Dead drug dealers can tell no lies against you!!

Bob


I say "let 'em out!" I realize they were found guilty by the evidence but they haved served, what, 2 yrs. now? Jeeze, overkill!
'PARDON!' I don't know but when someone is fleeing a police officer he is taking a risky chance.
 
Yes, they should be.

As far as i am concerned a shoot on sight policy would do wonders for our immigration problem.
 
Pardons all around if they would accept them!

If Bob's post above is coprrect, that they must admit quilt, I wonder if they would accept a pardon or hold out for a higher amount in a law suit later? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
 
[quote
I say "let 'em out!" I realize they were found guilty by the evidence but they haved served, what, 2 yrs. now? Jeeze, overkill!
'PARDON!' I don't know but when someone is fleeing a police officer he is taking a risky chance.


Agree with ya there, Bob!
Thinkin' that if Justice (retribution) is to be served, make the card-carryin'-commie Sutton serve the remainder of their sentences (consecutively /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif); find that POS drug-dealer and give him a retro-active Late-Term abortion--weed eater to the brain stem would most likely work (other options would be considered).

Hope ya have a great day!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

Bob
 
AZ my brother you know I almost always agree with you, but this time I'm in the other camp. I support a full pardon for both former agents.

Here are my reasons:

First, everybody needs to realize that most of their sentences, of 11 and 12 years, was due to federal firearms law which imposes a 10 year mandatory minimum for discharging a firearm during the commission of a felony. In this instance, the facts are clearly outside the intent of that legal provision.

Second, and with great respect, I dispute the way you have presented the facts here.

You said: "Bottom line in my assessment is both agents admitted in testimony that in broad daylight, after apprehending a drug smuggler,and finding him unarmed,they both fired a total of 15 rounds as he ran away.One round hit him in the butt.He fell on US soil and they made no attempt to apprehend him again,but immediately began picking up shell casings and tried to cover up the shooting.Other agents were there also and did not feel threatened and did not pull their weapons.

I guess the main question here is should we allow our law enforcement officers to shoot unarmed fleeing felons?"

You have kinda painted an inaccurate picture here, as though they were just standing around and that wasn't the case. It involved an adrenaline pumping pursuit by vehicle and foot.

OK, I won't get into a huge legal thing here, but the bottom line is this: This case boils down to the reasonableness of the agents' actions.

Now, the smuggler had fled from LEOs in a speeding car and during the pursuit he broke speed limits, ignored stop signs, a red light, etc.--CLEARLY, at least to me, a reckless, life-endangering attempt to AVOID ARREST.

In his van was 750lbs of marijuana.

Now, I am not a LEO but friends here are. Maybe they can help me here. To me, it seems REASONABLE for a LEO to assume that a guy who has broken a ton of laws fleeing from officers and who is a drug smuggler MIGHT be someone that officers could suspect of having the strong potential of being violent! So, to me, their heightened sensitivity to this seems abundantly REASONABLE.

Ramos and Compean both testified they saw and believed the smuggler had a gun or shiny object in his left hand as he was turning around toward the officers as he headed for the Rio Grande. Compean fired first and claims that at that instant he feared for his life.

Ramos was coming up out of a ditch and he testified that he heard Compean shooting, thought his partner was under fire, so he opened up fearing his and Compean's lives were in jeopardy, a REASONABLE assumption on his part given that he saw Campos shooting, so even--in arguendo--if Compean's shooting was somehow NOT reasonable then Ramos' was because he was REASONABLE in his belief that his partner was in jeopardy.

Again, this is all happening FAST and these guys had to react and couldn't sit around and pick their noses to think about it!

At the trial, a medical doctor testified that the smuggler's wound was consistent with his reaching his left hand back toward the officers in a bladed motion that would be consistent with pointing a weapon at the officers.

To me it seems clear: The agents had reasonable cause to believe they were firing upon a lethally dangerous criminal, a fleeing drug smuggler who had been recklessly avoiding arrest.

Now, as to the "...immediately began picking up shell casings and tried to cover up the shooting."

The issue in their big jail sentence goes to the reasonableness of the shooting given the facts up to the instant the triggers were pulled. Shell casings being picked up or not picked up is not at issue.

At trial, they were convicted of: Assault, discharge of a weapon in the commission of a crime of violence, tampering with an official proceeding and deprivation of civil rights.

In fact, that matter, tampering with an official proceeding, was overturned on subsequent appeal! The shell casings matter is moot. What DOES matter is the REASONABLENESS of their belief that their lives were in jeopardy. Whether the perp had a gun or not is irrelevant, what is relevant is what the officers REASONABLY THOUGHT.

These guys got the book thrown at them for a bad shooting and to me, an admitted layman, their actions seem abundantly reasonable given the facts. I admit, AZ, I have not studied this as closely as you but I just can't get behind this armchair second-guessing by a prosecutor who has probably NEVER had a gun, or what he believed was one, pointed at him by a fleeing felon.

I say PARDON "EM!
 
Rodgers said the former agents apparently are not eligible for a pardon, which would nullify the punishment. But they might be eligible for a commutation, which would result in a reduction of their sentences.

I agree with you Java and I can't for the life of me see how a jury would find them guilty, let alone why any unbiased AG would indict them in the first place. The statement by Rodgers that they aren't eligible for Pardon make me wonder what the eligibility for Pardon is. Evidently the POTUS has to follow some guidelines? I wonder if those guidelines apply to all of the previous Pardons?
 
Quote:
Can I vote 2 or more times on this?



If you are a conservative you can only vote once, that vote may be thrown out on a technicallity. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

If you are a liberal vote as many times as you can. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif
 
In a perfect world, even their sentences are Draconian compared to similarly charged Defendants. But, when you stack their relatively mild deeds up against those of the professional drug smuggler who apparently got a blanket immunity and medical care, this imbalance of justice is why our southern border leaks like my Ford's radiator and the Mexican drug Cartels laugh out load at the Gringos.

We need to decide which side we are on and fight for it. Border law enforcement is not a tea party and if we don't get SERIOUS pretty soon, we'll have more crimes related to drug trafficking further into the Continental United States.

Judges are supposed to go with the common sense gravitas of the case to arrive at justice, and this time they went astray. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

After the dust settles on the Coronation in DC maybe BO will follow his better side and at least PAROLE them if not PARDON them! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Sam H. Asbury, III
CLEET #08 PIA 2782
 
AZ

I follow this case almost daily on AM 700 radio. I have to respectfully disagree with you on this one.

The AG Johnny Sutton had some crucial evidence blocked in this case that may have given the jury enough evidence to find for the BP agents. One item that comes to mind is that the fleeing felon was actually a full time drug runner who was arrested again with a load of weed. The jury was not allowed to hear that. Sutton painted the smuggler as a one time choir boy who was just trying to get some money to help his sick mama.

Mistakes were made, and these two guys should have been reprimanded or even fired, but 11 years in jail is just Bush and Sutton playing to mexico. Makes me sick actually.

I hope Bush does the right thing and commutes their sentences. Who wants to be a BP agent knowing that the US Govt is your worst enemy?
 
That's a fact! I friend of mine who used to be the Chairman of the Board of the HO HO KAM Indian Hospital in Sacaton, AZ, once killed two DRT out on the GRIR!

No worry about the WITNESS PROTECTION PROGRAM with DRT! I don't personally recommend this, but it does work. My friend did 7 years Federal time for his actions. Working on his bench press the whole time. Got out better shape than when he went in.

I keep wondering where this drug smuggles is these days. You can bet he is still working in his chosen field. When you step back and look @ this case with clear eyes, USA got a huge bill for incarcerating two men who flubbed an apprehension which will reach about $600,000.0 USD.

That's a lot of tacos, buddy!

The bad guy got an enduring legal immunity, medical help, and a pass to go back to work. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Not a very good result for the USA! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

We are already starting to pay farther North as the high tech Drug Cartels weave their webs of distribution tighter every week! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Sooner, or later, we'll 'get it' and take more effective action! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Sam H. Asbury, III
CLEET #08 PIA 2782
 
Java,Sam,& Stealth,I appreciate your input on this case.Your thoughtful responses have enabled me to open a new prospective on this case.The problem anymore it seems is that the older I get,the less sure I am of what is truly right and wrong.Most of my life I was adamantly sure I knew right from wrong in every aspect of life. Everything was black or white, no gray.Thinking about it now I was probably very much like our budding thinker JWP.Now no disrespect meant there JW,it's a disposition that generally changes over our lifetime.I have found that nowdays,there is quite a bit more gray area than Black and white.Some things are never gray, such as patriotism,the Constitution,the Bible and the fact that all well intentioned,good,honest folks deserve to be treated fairly.Someone had asked where the smuggler was now.He actually is in federal custody after being found guilty in another case of smuggling.No doubt he's a slime bag,we probably don't know the half of his bad deeds.The real problem here as I see it is you don't know who to believe as far as the facts of the case go.I had not read that the DA with held facts and evidence, but that doesn't surprise me.I know for a fact that the agents tried to hide evidence too, as they admitted it in court.What ever happened to Truth, Justice and the American way.Probably never existed in real life I suspect.All I know for sure is I really miss those days of my youth when I always knew what was right and what was wrong.Now I just sound more and more like my Dad every day,God rest his soul.Gray in the beard and gray in the world grows more and more every day.lol
 
President G.W. Bush has just commuted their sentence.
I B HAPPY!!!!!!!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 
Last edited:
Back
Top