side by side comparison of Torch Pro and UNV T20

Originally Posted By: SkyPupit pays to be silent and not smell like a redneck!
blush.gif


And I thought beer breath was a baiting tactic.

Oops, maybe you meant High Tech Red Neck! Ha!

Whatever it is, they sure are sensitive rascals and I've seen something change in them, just from light alone (I think). My experience shows a difference in their reaction depending on the type of light I use, but all lights seem to have some effect.
 
Originally Posted By: SkyPupUnfortunately, too many hunters cannot think outside the human box and think that their own experience is the experience of all other creatures of nature.

Once you learn the hardcore veterinary sciences, you no longer are forced to think from your own anthropomorphic empirical experiences!
cool.gif


I don't think it really matters to most hunters what colors or shades science says coyotes can see. What matters most is the ability to get them in close enough for positive identification and the shot without spooking them with visible or invisible light. Some coyotes seem more sensitive than others.....we really can't throw them all in the same pot either.
 
I know, you don't have to understand firearms, gun powder, ballistics, geometry, GPS, or a myraid of other tools that you use to make the kill either, science only helps those processes tremendously when you understand it.

In most cases, ignorance is bliss.
 
There are even coyote hunters on the internet that are afraid to use thermals because when they turn them on they are scared that the coyotes are seeing long range infrared coming out of the thermals scaring away the coyotes!
wub.gif



Gotta love it when someone believes that the thermal "beam" coming out of a completely passive receiving only instrument that only receives natural thermal emissions is being "seen" by coyotes, but based on their empirical laboratory experiences it has got to be true!
rolleyes.gif



But then again, some venomous viper snakes have evolved specialized organs (not eyes though) to be able to detect thermal emissions, who's to say that coyotes have not evolved thermal eyesight to help them track down and kill hidden prey? It certainly would be a HUGE plus for the coyotes to have thermal vision, no doubt about that. But do they actually have thermal vision like these internet coyote hunters claim they do?
unsure.gif


Just another can of worms they've opened up to debate endlessly over the coming years while the rest of us are killing coyotes with thermals day and night!
grin.gif



As a matter of fact, I recently called in this coyote with my FoxPro Prairie Blaster using Bay Bee Cottontail and he came in out of the woods about 350 yards out when I first picked him up with the FLIR LS-64 hand scanner. He continued coming in at a moderate walk, stopping and looking around intermittently, until he was about 75 yards out and then I turned on the FLIR T-75 thermal weapon scope to target him, suddenly he turned and did a 180 and took off trotting back into the dense tree line after being clear out in the open. He was getting away and looked like he was not going to walk back into the thermal beam of my FLIR weapon scope again, so I shot him at approx 230-250 yards out before he could get away.





Could this suspect highly specialized genetic mutant coyote have evolved specialized long range infrared photopigment receptors in his retinal cone cells using some type of mutant opsin proteins unknown to opthalmic vision scientists in his X-chromosome? Inquiring minds want to know! I'm glad I killed him, so that his mutant genes would not have a chance to spread back into the coyote population.
 
Originally Posted By: SkyPupI know, you don't have to understand firearms, gun powder, ballistics, geometry, GPS, or a myraid of other tools that you use to make the kill either, science only helps those processes tremendously when you understand it.

In most cases, ignorance is bliss.

VERY well said...It's amazing how many folks think animals can see in the IR spectrum. We've had many animal biologists whom we've spoken to early on on this very subject as it IS important to educate hunters on what critters can and cannot see.

Most hunters are heard or smelled LONG before any IR LED visible pill is seen from the emitter. That is a hard fact of the matter no matter if it's 805nm or 940nm!

We actually build AND engineered our Torch Pro from the get-go and did all the R&D for the device. We know all intricates about it, because someone did not build it for us and slap our name on it to just re-sell.
 
got in late on this one, have been in KS hunting coyotes cant use a light source of any kind there but had a good 3/4 moon so didn't need it.

anyway I have had coyotes spoke off the IR source, seen it to many times to not adjust my techniques after looking back at the IR source at 400 yards and could see a faint glow like a mini bike tail light. it wasn't my smell, cross wind, it wasn't my movement very till and coyotes where between 200-400 yards, They don't have gen3 eyesight. so I leave the IR off till ready to ID and shoot. this had worked well as they have sometimes stopped moments after I hit the IR giving me a good shot.

now I did see on the NGeo channel that rain deer have IR capabilities in order to keep one step ahead of wolves???
 
Phil, only on the internet can coyotes see ultraviolet, infrared, microwave, X-ray, gamma ray, alpha ray, beta ray, Wi-Fi, terahertz, radio waves, television waves, etc.

In real life they cannot even see what a human being sees and are forced to instead rely on their other highly developed keen senses to make up for their lack of visual acuity, especially at night.
 
science has been wrong before and that's what I like about it, it has no problem correcting itself unlike religion and politics. they may not see what I see but it aperies to be something they see? I can never figure out how we know what they see without looking through their eyes? (OH IF I COULD ONLY GET IN A COYOTES HEAD FOR A DAY) I do not believe they can see the light beam as it washes across a pasture, but I believe they can see the source and the movement like I and HTR said I have seen to many put on the breaks when coming in hard the Instinet they are hit with a strong IR and the only movement was my thumb on the button? the last one was outside Victoria TX with Deidra, hard charger coming in 1/4 cross wind but within it field of view of us and the call , she hit her IR (simply pushing the button with her left thumb while cross hairs on the coyote) and it stopped, turned and started to bolt out of there, she kept her IR on it so no need for me to turn mine on and I hit him in the ars before he could get on the gas

in KS on this last trip, we used no IR but NV and killed hard charging coyotes at 20-40 yards the longest shot at night was 177 yards with a PVS14 behind a vortex 5x20 and the only reason that shot was made was they started to work the wind and my rule of thumb is kill them before they get in your scent cone.

this debate will be around for a long time you have science on one side and personal experience on the other and even if you take the lab in the field the results are some times like some study's, they find the results they want in order to try and prove a belief, (some thing beloved to them)

skypup we may disagree on this but I still think your a fine judge of woman, whisky, and guns
 
haha, next time you trap a coyote, trying shining one of your IR lasers directly into his eye up close and see if he blinks!
crazy.gif



He won't blink!
blushing.gif



But the scientist in me will......LOL!
thumbup.gif
 
Originally Posted By: the impactzonegot in late on this one, have been in KS hunting coyotes cant use a light source of any kind there but had a good 3/4 moon so didn't need it.

anyway I have had coyotes spoke off the IR source, seen it to many times to not adjust my techniques after looking back at the IR source at 400 yards and could see a faint glow like a mini bike tail light. it wasn't my smell, cross wind, it wasn't my movement very till and coyotes where between 200-400 yards, They don't have gen3 eyesight. so I leave the IR off till ready to ID and shoot. this had worked well as they have sometimes stopped moments after I hit the IR giving me a good shot.

now I did see on the NGeo channel that rain deer have IR capabilities in order to keep one step ahead of wolves???

The key is visible glow and not the IR spectrum itself which folks misinterpret that ALL IR LED's have. Even at 940 and IR LASERS also have a footprint of a visible signature at the emitter, but lasers have a MUCH more concentric visible dot due to it being an actual laser diode that is seen at 25-30 yards or less.
 
Here is a nice photograph of a 850nm IR LED flashlight that I use, the photo was taken with a normal visual light camera on normal daylight visual settings on one of the fourteen different IR illuminators that I use:


EagleTac%20850nm%20IR%20LED.jpg



EagleTac%20850nm%20IR%20Warning.jpg



You will notice that not only could I not see anything coming out of this 850nm flashlight lens while it was on, but neither could my camera see anything either?

Is this some kind of witchcraft magic, or does someone have a photograph of a 850nm laser taken with a normal camera that we all can see?


Also, when I screw a 720nm IR cutoff filter onto the objective lens of any of my ten different cameras all them ONLY SEE BLACK? Is there something special that I have to magically do to these cameras to alleviate them only showing BLACK with a 720nm cutoff IR lens on them? I'd really like to be able to see 850nm wavelength IR but so far it is not working out very well for me as it remains elusive.


720%20IR%20Filter2.jpg



Here is my SIG P-229 with a Crimson Trace 850nm IR laser on taken with normal daylight settings on one of my cameras, is there someway I should adjust the camera settings in order that I can see the laser better as it is not showing up very well for some reason?

SIG%20229%20CR%20IR.jpg



Here is a photo with the same camera with a PVS-14 attached to the objective lens, now the 850nm IR lasers are quite visible but I still cannot see anything but darkness with my own eyes. Is there some way I can improve my night vision so that I can see these IR lasers without using NV?


LASTAC%20&%20DBAL%20NO%20Filter%2030%20Yards.jpg



I killed this coyote with a 850nm laser that he could not see and I could not see it either until I used a GEN III image intensifier to take this photo of him, to me it was just a dark black dead dog, is there something I'm doing wrong as I would really like to be able to see this 850nm laser myself without all this expensive NV gear?


NV%20Coyote%202.jpg

 

Well, I'm definitely no expert and won't argue that I am. But, I know that animals see something, whether it's IR, or the "visible glow" or whatever. It may not be IR in and of itself, but there's something there that they do see, and that is the problem, regardless of what it is.

If the problem is visible glow, or some other factor other than IR, is there a way to correct it to where they see nothing, are not scared of it, and without losing the light's brightness and effective throw? If not, seems to me that's room for some technology advances, hopefully.

 
Well, I am glad to know that both my camera and eyes are working properly as I thought that there may be something seriously wrong with them as it is very easy to see my SIG P-229s Visible Red 635nm laser even at night!

I sure am glad that my 35 years of professional graduate studies trained in biochemical molecular genetics of vision research helping blind people to be able to see have paid off before I retired....
thumbup1.gif



SIG%20228%20CT%20Laser.jpg


My 2015 New Years Resolution is to be able to see all my 850nm IR lasers just like all the dichromatic coyotes and hogs supposedly magically do BEFORE I retire later this year and spend all my free time out hunting them!
blink.gif



Maybe I'll enuculate a couple of fresh coyote eyeballs and put them in the liquid nitrogen tank for special spectral examination later on in my spare time, along with all the tens of thousands of mouse, rat, rabbit, ferret, cat, dog, cow, sheep, elephant, buffalo, monkey, chimpanzee, and human eyes, since apparently there has to be something special about coyote eyes.

I just got a nice fresh set of human eyes from a fatal motorcycle accident here in town I can compare them to. Sometimes it pays to have the Southeast Regional Human Eye Bank right down the hall and the morgue right below one floor.
 
In all my posts about IR light I have focused on the IR "Signature" which is the visible red glow that we humans can see. Coyotes can see visible light so they can also see the "glow" the same as we can or possibly even better. It may not be the color of red but they can see it just as surely as I can see it. Seen way too many spook from it based upon years of hunting. Using IR devices that put out less visible signature "glow" seems to help disguise it better. Putting a cut piece of sheet over the front objective and holding it in place with a rubber band also softens the visible "glow" as well which helps (but also reduces the range).

So as to be clear here, no coyotes do not seem to be able to see in the IR spectrum nor can we see in the IR spectrum. We can see the visible "glow" of the IR light being emitted from the IR device and it has been my experience that coyotes can also see the visible glow as well. Kevin
 
I'd venture to guess that we are unable to determine the frequency of birth defects and genetic mutations in wild animals but that those who react to the IR light when they aren't even facing it have some "issue".

I had a fox checking out a gut pile, his back was to me and I turned on the UNV20IR and he freaked out. Was it a shadow cast or sense of heat from the beam who knows - nature is very mysterious at times.

I'm pretty sure it wasn't the origin of the light, how it was designed, or whose name was slapped on the side of it for reselling - I think it was all animal based.

BB
 
Does anyone have the specific genetic locus with the chromosome number, arm position, and band position on the centromere where the coyote long wave length sensitive cone opsin protein DNA sequence is located that allows them to visualize red?

Searching the USA's National Institutes of Health's GeneBank for all available DNA sequences only shows that coyotes are dichromatic with only the short and medium wavelength opsin proteins, there is no DNA listing for the long wave length opsins that would allow them to visualize the color red.

I checked the International Nucleotide Sequence Database and it has the same result as the NIH GeneBank does?

This is perplexing, coyotes have got to have the long wavelength opsin protein DNA sequence in order for them to see red, but they don't.

Also, there is no nucleotide sequence that I could dig up that would allow them to see infrared either.

Someone somewhere on Planet Earth has got to have these important DNA sequences for all these coyotes to be seeing the color red and infrared light? Who could it be?

I could probe some coyote retinal tissue extract for the upper wavelength opsin sequence, but first I would have to get the forward and reverse DNA sequences from some fresh c-DNA from some fresh RNA in order to create the oligonucleotides to prime onto the DNA strands.
 
BB,

I haven't ever had one spook in that manner before. Maybe he caught a glimpse of the glow or possibly you have created another debatable issue.....do they emit a heat signature ??

I agree, nature is mysterious at times and all coyotes, foxes, bobcats, etc. seem have their own personalities. The wise old buck that is able to survive numerous deer seasons to grow a B&C rack probably has a different personality that the spike horn that gets taken out on the first day of deer season. I digress.......Kevin
 
A defective UNV20IR emitting an extreme heat signature that the mutant coyote's fourth thermal sense was able to detect?

That would be my guess.
 
Back
Top