Snake Gun Shotshell Unofficial Comparison

Originally Posted By: kelCatShooter, I'm not arguing the point with you. I agree that reading the definitions makes any pistol with a smooth bore a no no without ATF approval. I just think the law was written to cover the large standard shotguns that can be cut down and still pack quite a punch with buckshot. The unfortunate part is it grouped the smaller pistol types (read non-judge) into the same catagory. I would rather be shot with a pistol caliber shotshell than the regular round as long as it wasn't in my face and I was blinded in both eyes.

I'm willing to bet Taurus worked hard with the ATF to try to get an exemption for the Judge because I think manufacturers can try to get an exemption for certain things can't they? I'm wondering if anyone's tried to get one for the small calibers. I'd guess so, and I'd guess it was unsuccessful.

The Taurus is rifled. So it is a standard handgun.

There are NO exemptions or exceptions at all - if it is smooth bore, and shorter than 18", then it is a short barreled shotgun, even if it's built on a 19111, or a revolver... there are NO exceptions.

The ATF's job is not to allow "us" to do things, their job is to harass the firearms industry into dust

The fact that it will take 410 shotgun shells has nothing to do with it. The Taurus is rifled, so it is a handgun, and not a shot gun.

A pistol with a smooth bore is a short barreled shotgun - no matter what the intention was when it was made. If it is rifled (and listed as a handgun by the manufacturer as a handgun), then it is a legal handgun, even if it takes 12ga shot shells (ouchie!!
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This the law as it was written in 1934 (Miller vs U.S.).

It has not changed - it has gotten worse over the years.

I know you don't think it makes sense... it was not intended to make sense - it was intended to put people in jail.


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Originally Posted By: CatShooter
kel said:
This the law as it was written in 1934 (Miller vs U.S.).

It has not changed - it has gotten worse over the years.

I know you don't think it makes sense... it was not intended to make sense - it was intended to put people in jail.


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Well, Catshooter has a well established rep of knowing what he's talking about. Sad that I think he's right about BATFE. Individual agents might be helpful in interpreting things favorably but in general, I think it's just another example of bureaucracy not being on the side of the citizen. Don
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Originally Posted By: DonDOriginally Posted By: CatShooter
kel said:
This the law as it was written in 1934 (Miller vs U.S.).

It has not changed - it has gotten worse over the years.

I know you don't think it makes sense... it was not intended to make sense - it was intended to put people in jail.


.

Well, Catshooter has a well established rep of knowing what he's talking about. Sad that I think he's right about BATFE. Individual agents might be helpful in interpreting things favorably but in general, I think it's just another example of bureaucracy not being on the side of the citizen. Don

I have met some nice agents, and a few moved my FFL through the system very fast (8 weeks instead of 6 months), but the ones in enforcement bureau think their poop doesn't smell... and they are above the law
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Originally Posted By: CatShooterThere are NO exemptions or exceptions at all - if it is smooth bore, and shorter than 18", then it is a short barreled shotgun, even if it's built on a 19111, or a revolver... there are NO exceptions.

That is wrong.
ATF defines shotguns as a shoulder fired weapon.
A smoothbore pistol or revolver is classified as an "any other weapon".

The difference is to transfer a SBS you need a $200 tax stamp.
To transfer an AOW it's a $5 tax stamp.
To manufacture either is a $200 tax stamp.

I've already posted the links in this thread.
 
So how about when you buy a Rem 870 with factory supplied (and only that one) rifled barrel installed? Is it a shotgun or a rifle? Does the shell situation come into discussion, and if so, what about the Pardner style break actions, if one comes with a rifled bore, is it a rifle? What if the same receiver came with only a smoothbore attached, is it a shotgun? What if someone changes the barrel (as they are interchangeable in some of these break action weapons, Rossi comes to mind, among others), and sells it to someone else? As the rifle can have shorter barrel (is 16 inches not correct for AR's as a min?), the barrel becomes the issue in those cases ahead of the receiver, or no? Just wondering...
 
Originally Posted By: CrazyHorse66Originally Posted By: CatShooterThere are NO exemptions or exceptions at all - if it is smooth bore, and shorter than 18", then it is a short barreled shotgun, even if it's built on a 19111, or a revolver... there are NO exceptions.

That is wrong.
ATF defines shotguns as a shoulder fired weapon.
A smoothbore pistol or revolver is classified as an "any other weapon".

The difference is to transfer a SBS you need a $200 tax stamp.
To transfer an AOW it's a $5 tax stamp.
To manufacture either is a $200 tax stamp.

I've already posted the links in this thread.

You are right about it being an AOW... but if YOU do the converting (installing a smooth bore barrel) then YOU are the manufacturer, and you are still must register it, pay the $200, and get the tax stamp, BEFORE you get or make the smooth bore barrel.

Regardless of designation - short barreled shotgun, or AOW... there are no exceptions on smooth bore firearms shorter than 18" - they MUST be registered with the ATF.


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Originally Posted By: im4flightHow do the .45 shotshells cycle in your 1911's?



They cycle very good, never had a jam. I have maybe shot it 5 or 6 times. Shells cost to much.

I have always enjoyed any contact with ATF agents. My smooth bore 1911 is a handgun and okay, end of story. It shoot a 45acp not a 12 gauge. It does not shoot shotgun shells.

I would thing "The Judge pistol" you might not want to hone the barrel since it shoot 410 shotgun shells.

ATF has been to my house before, I make coffee and they are one of the good guys.

If you want one, buy an old shot out barrel at a gunshow and have a machine shop hone the bore. You may have to fit the barrel and change the link. Take your slide along and check it with the barrel.
 
Originally Posted By: willy1947Originally Posted By: im4flightHow do the .45 shotshells cycle in your 1911's?



They cycle very good, never had a jam. I have maybe shot it 5 or 6 times. Shells cost to much.

I have always enjoyed any contact with ATF agents. My smooth bore 1911 is a handgun and okay, end of story. It shoot a 45acp not a 12 gauge. It does not shoot shotgun shells.

I would thing "The Judge pistol" you might not want to hone the barrel since it shoot 410 shotgun shells.

ATF has been to my house before, I make coffee and they are one of the good guys.

If you want one, buy an old shot out barrel at a gunshow and have a machine shop hone the bore. You may have to fit the barrel and change the link. Take your slide along and check it with the barrel.




In the years I have delt with BATF I have found most of them to be good guys also but before you "Hone" that barrel, get an opinion in writting, on BATF Letter head. Arguing with them in court is very expensive. (Jerry's helpful hint of the day) You'll never get that letter.

As an aside, and back to the main topic, .45 shot shells can be made using .308 brass. There was an article in one of the gun books many years ago and I tried it. Works pretty well. The process was to trim a .308 round to maybe a 1/4 inch longer than a factory .45 ACP round. Then, using a washer of the approprate size, reduce the new mouth of this brass leaving a shoulder to head space in the .45 chamber. The new neck allowed the round to feed from a .45 magazine and allow for more shot and wad.

Just did the google and found this.

http://www.northwestfirearms.com/ammunition-reloading/48695-45-acp-shot-shell.html
 
Originally Posted By: willy1947 My smooth bore 1911 is a handgun and okay, end of story.


You are wrong.

Originally Posted By: willy1947
If you want one, buy an old shot out barrel at a gunshow and have a machine shop hone the bore.

Not only is what you're advising stupid, it is "felony stupid" (to quote Darrel Issa) unless a $200 manufacturing tax stamp is in hand.
People have been banned from this board for advocating illegal activities.
If you don't know the law, keep your mouth shut.

Revenue ruling 54-159, C.B. 1954-1, 251 revoked



Revenue Ruling 57-6

" A rifled bore pistol or revolver of the conventional type is
not a firearm as defined in section 5848 of the Internal
Revenue Code of 1954, but a smooth bore "pistol or revolver"
is a firearm as so defined.
Revenue Ruling 54-159, C.B. 1954-1, 251, revoked.

Revenue Ruling 54-159, C.B. 1954-1, 251, holds that the
removal of the rifling from the barrel of .38 and .45 caliber
revolvers and the use of standard revolver cartridge casings, hand
loaded with shot, do not remove such weapons from the
classification of revolvers.
The Internal Revenue Service has reconsidered, for
classification purposes under the National Firearms Act (chapter 53
of the Internal Revenue Code of 1954), the status of a pistol or
revolver, designed or redesigned to fire through a smooth bore,
primarily fixed ammunition consisting of the case, primer,
propellent charge and "shot" rather than fire, through a rifled
bore, fixed ammunition consisting of the case, primer, propellent
charge and a "bullet." As a result of the comprehensive ballistics
and practical comparative tests, the weapons have been classified
as follows: A rifled bore pistol or revolver of the conventional type
meets the basic requirements of a "small projectile weapon" as
defined in sections 179.35 and 179.37 of the Regulations related to
Machine Guns and Certain Other Firearms, even if loaded with "shot"
cartridges for the reason that it is designed most proficiently
from a ballistics standpoint when discharging a "bullet."
Accordingly, a rifled bore pistol or revolver of the conventional
type is not a firearm as defined in section 5848 of the Code.
On the other hand, a smooth bore pistol or revolver fails to
meet the basic requirements of a "small projectile weapon" even
when loaded with "bullet cartridges" for the reason that the weapon
is designed to function most proficiently from a ballistics
standpoint when discharging "shot," equalling the potential of
shotguns with comparable specifications. Therefore a smooth bore
handgun is not a "pistol or revolver" as defined in the regulatory
definitions referred to above and is not entitled to exception from
the provisions of chapter 53 of the Code. Accordingly it is held
that such a weapon is a firearm as defined in section 5848(1) and
(5) of the Code and as such is subject to the provisions of the
National Firearms Act (chapter 53 of the Code).
Revenue Ruling 54-159, C.B. 1954-1, 251, is hereby revoked.
However, under the authority of section 7805(b) of the Code, this
ruling will be applied without retroactive effect."

 
..So.. then a rifled barrel on a shotgun makes it a rifle? I don't think I understand the difference if the user has the ability to swap barrels with prepared barrels sold on the open market by the manufacturer... Would this mean that if you located a licensed gunsmith that made smoothbore .45 barrels you could not install them legally in a 1911 even if you did not prepare them, right?

Oh, and how does the ATF track/prove that a future owner of a .45 with a smooth barrel is guilty of anything at all if the gun is sporting a rifled one when inspected? How was the new owner to know about the old registration, and what is his liability when you can buy firearms from one person to another without FFL transfers in most states? How can the BATFE hope to have jurisdiction on that when they cannot prove who the culprit was, and what right have they to deprive someone of hard earned money or liberty when they are innocent of any knowledge of a previous owner's actions? Something is fishy here, I am not understanding something in this discussion...
 
Starting to get old actually. I know I started it, but I was educated yesterday. I've moved on.

Actually thinking that we may be overplaying the rifling causing patterns to be opened up excessivly anyway. I'm thinking since I was unable to really find any pistol, including the Judge that has been modified by a licensed class 3 dealer/manufacturer, (now I didn't spend all day looking for them) but when I did a search of SBS's always came up with a short 12 or 20 gauge, that shows either there isn't a demand, or the results just don't warrant the extra cost of tax stamps etc.

I'm thinking that a short barrel with rifling isn't probably going to spin up the shot as much as a long one since the shot really has to be in contact with the rifling, correct? I doubt any individual shot will completely pass along a rifle groove from start to exit so unless the shot is packed extremely tight as it goes down the barrel it shouldn't affect it as bad. Right or wrong?

I think this shows PM could benefit from a seperate Class 3 section.

Yes, my .45 is rifled and it cycles the shells without problem although that is not the case for all .45's. Probably do a search and see what others with your type are saying.

PS: Lets have someone with a 12 gauge that has both rifled and unrifled equal length barrels to fire some shot and see what the difference is. I don't have one.
 
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Originally Posted By: kelStarting to get old actually. I know I started it, but I was educated yesterday. I've moved on.

Actually thinking that we may be overplaying the rifling causing patterns to be opened up excessivly anyway. I'm thinking since I was unable to really find any pistol, including the Judge that has been modified by a licensed class 3 dealer/manufacturer, (now I didn't spend all day looking for them) but when I did a search of SBS's always came up with a short 12 or 20 gauge, that shows either there isn't a demand, or the results just don't warrant the extra cost of tax stamps etc.

I'm thinking that a short barrel with rifling isn't probably going to spin up the shot as much as a long one since the shot really has to be in contact with the rifling, correct? I doubt any individual shot will completely pass along a rifle groove from start to exit so unless the shot is packed extremely tight as it goes down the barrel it shouldn't affect it as bad. Right or wrong?

I think this shows PM could benefit from a seperate Class 3 section.

Yes, my .45 is rifled and it cycles the shells without problem although that is not the case for all .45's. Probably do a search and see what others with your type are saying.

I think you're right in that a pistol isn't going to benefit from having a smooth bore unless you also ad some sort of a choke. You sure ain't gonna do any Goose hunting with it. For snakes at 15 feet, it just don't matter. Certainly not enough to risk having to defend yourself in court.
 
I did find where they issued flyers .45 shotshells with the intent of obtaining game once shot down. I wonder what type of game they wanted them to try to shoot? Now if they would just find a stash of that and release it as military surplus.
 
Originally Posted By: JerrySchmittOriginally Posted By: kelStarting to get old actually. I know I started it, but I was educated yesterday. I've moved on.

Actually thinking that we may be overplaying the rifling causing patterns to be opened up excessivly anyway. I'm thinking since I was unable to really find any pistol, including the Judge that has been modified by a licensed class 3 dealer/manufacturer, (now I didn't spend all day looking for them) but when I did a search of SBS's always came up with a short 12 or 20 gauge, that shows either there isn't a demand, or the results just don't warrant the extra cost of tax stamps etc.

I'm thinking that a short barrel with rifling isn't probably going to spin up the shot as much as a long one since the shot really has to be in contact with the rifling, correct? I doubt any individual shot will completely pass along a rifle groove from start to exit so unless the shot is packed extremely tight as it goes down the barrel it shouldn't affect it as bad. Right or wrong?

I think this shows PM could benefit from a seperate Class 3 section.

Yes, my .45 is rifled and it cycles the shells without problem although that is not the case for all .45's. Probably do a search and see what others with your type are saying.

I think you're right in that a pistol isn't going to benefit from having a smooth bore unless you also ad some sort of a choke. You sure ain't gonna do any Goose hunting with it. For snakes at 15 feet, it just don't matter. Certainly not enough to risk having to defend yourself in court.

The rifling in all of my 45's is very shallow (hard ball guns), and based on the patterns in the tests at the beginning of this thread, I think the 45 Auto with shot shells is as good as I would need for snakes ( of all kinds), and I could quickly swap out a mag full of hollow points if the need was there.

Looking at the 45 Auto groups, I can't see them getting better with a smooth bore and choke - I mean how far do you need to get a snake in the pattern - if the pattern is too tight, then you stand a very good chance of missing a rattler at close distance - I'm not worried about the one at 25 feet. I'm worried about the one at 5 feet.

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Originally Posted By: BubbaChicken..So.. then a rifled barrel on a shotgun makes it a rifle?

Here's another ATF definition that many states have adopted into their laws.

ATF.gov

"18 U.S.C. § 921 (a)(7) And 27 CFR § 478.11
The term "RIFLE" means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to
be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy
of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore
for each single pull of the trigger."

"Metallic" cartridge would seem to exclude shotguns.
Also slug barrelled shotguns are considered "sporting" whereas NFA items are "non sporting".
A rifle with a bore > .50 caliber is a "destructive device". I believe "sporting" shotguns are exempt from the DD classification.

ATF.gov

"Exemptions:
A shotgun or shotgun shell which is determined by the Attorney General to be generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes."


"sporting exemption"

I can't find the definitive answer to your question. Like a lot of things concerning the ATF, it's very shady and gray.

 
Originally Posted By: BubbaChicken

"Would this mean that if you located a licensed gunsmith that made smoothbore .45 barrels you could not install them legally in a 1911 even if you did not prepare them, right? "





Yes, that is what it means.


Originally Posted By: BubbaChicken

"Oh, and how does the ATF track/prove that a future owner of a .45 with a smooth barrel is guilty of anything at all if the gun is sporting a rifled one when inspected? How was the new owner to know about the old registration, and what is his liability when you can buy firearms from one person to another without FFL transfers in most states? How can the BATFE hope to have jurisdiction on that when they cannot prove who the culprit was, and what right have they to deprive someone of hard earned money or liberty when they are innocent of any knowledge of a previous owner's actions? Something is fishy here, I am not understanding something in this discussion...

Once a firearm is registered with the ATF, the owner MUST report any sale and wait for permission to transfer the pistol to the new owner, who MUST have an ATF paid tax stamp in his physical possession at the time of the transfer.

You can own a smooth bore 45 Auto barrel, if you don't have a 45 Auto.... having them both in your possession is a prima fascia case for unlawful possession of a restricted firearm.

They have the right, because we elected azzholes that gave them the right.


 
Originally Posted By: CatShooterOriginally Posted By: BubbaChicken

"Would this mean that if you located a licensed gunsmith that made smoothbore .45 barrels you could not install them legally in a 1911 even if you did not prepare them, right? "





Yes, that is what it means.

Unless you get a tax stamp first.

And as CatShooter pointed out, possession of the barrel and a host weapon can and has been construed by the ATF as "intent to manufacture".
Same goes for short barrelled uppers and ARs. If you have a short barrelled upper you better have an assembled AR pistol lower or a tax stamp if you possess a rifle lower.
 
Originally Posted By: BubbaChicken..So.. then a rifled barrel on a shotgun makes it a rifle? I don't think I understand the difference if the user has the ability to swap barrels with prepared barrels sold on the open market by the manufacturer... Would this mean that if you located a licensed gunsmith that made smoothbore .45 barrels you could not install them legally in a 1911 even if you did not prepare them, right?

Oh, and how does the ATF track/prove that a future owner of a .45 with a smooth barrel is guilty of anything at all if the gun is sporting a rifled one when inspected? How was the new owner to know about the old registration, and what is his liability when you can buy firearms from one person to another without FFL transfers in most states? How can the BATFE hope to have jurisdiction on that when they cannot prove who the culprit was, and what right have they to deprive someone of hard earned money or liberty when they are innocent of any knowledge of a previous owner's actions? Something is fishy here, I am not understanding something in this discussion...

1st ?? 1st - if a rifled slug bbl is longer than 18" (or maybe 16" since it would now be considered a rifle), it is now a "rifle". If it has a smoothbore bbl longer than 18, it is now a shotgun. Either shorter than the legally allowable length is a felony without special paperwork/permission/$$/the gov't knowing where it is at all times. BOTH the manufacturer, AND the owner (if not one and the same) are legally liable if not done legally. This is why the Judge, the Contenders for shotshells, the S&W Governor, all pistols, etc. (ie shorter bbl than 18") are rifled or need special paperwork, or are illegal.

2nd ?? - the smoothbore bbl shorter than 18" IS the violation. They find it, you've had it, unless you have the paperwork. The OWNERSHIP is the violation.....correction - POSSESSION is the violation - and the manufacture if not licensed. I don't know how it is in other states, but in PA, all handguns legally need transferred to a new owner. One way they might prove it is by scanning gun and hunting sites on the net occasionally. Lack of knowledge of the law is what got Nugent busted in a couple of states....supposedly. If lack of knowledge of the law gained you innocence, a guy from Nigeria could enter the US, buy a car and drive 120 down the road and get off on any charges cuz he didn't know. And keep his license and car cuz he had the "right" and "liberty". It is not a right or liberty to own a banned weapon or part.....according to law, which has been tested in court many times.
 


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