bonesarelli
New member
Are custom barrels like Krieger, Hart, & Pac-Nor that superior to stock barrels? On a scale of 1-10, and customs being a 10, how do stock barrels rate?
stock barrels vs. customs
- Thread starter bonesarelli
- Start date
Bayou City Boy
New member
bonesarelli:
Its kinda' hard to put an exact number on a stock barrel versus a good custom barrel, but here goes.
Good custom barrels will all be very comparable in accuracy and clean-up ease. Its probably gonna' boil down to personal preference or "comfort" on which custom barrel you choose, but all will be very similar in performance for the most part.
On the other hand, you can find stock barrels that are good and some that are OK and some that don't make good tomato stakes. With that in mind, stock barrels maybe range from a 2-3 to maybe an 8 if you're lucky.
I have a Rem 700 BDL in 17 Rem that has one of the best stock factory barrels I have ever shot. It is very accurate and clean-up after 50-60 rounds is a few patches and you're done with very little copper fouling. Other folks have the same rifle with bullets actually key-holing from barrel fouling after 25 rounds.
As a result, the best I can say is that you will typically get a great shooting barrel from the available custom barrel makers. If you're not happy with its performance, most barrel makers will do all they can to replace it or make it right.
If you get a good stock barrel, you've got a shooter. If you don't you have endless aggravation. At least in my experience over 35 years, I have bought some very good stock rifles that I have been satisfied with , but I have also bought a few dogs in the process. The problem is you never know until after the check is written and its all yours tax, title, & license as to what quality of stock barrel came attached to your new rifle.
All in all, there are few stock barrels that come close to a good custom barrel in overall performance. That's just my take on it. Others may agree or not. - BCB
Its kinda' hard to put an exact number on a stock barrel versus a good custom barrel, but here goes.
Good custom barrels will all be very comparable in accuracy and clean-up ease. Its probably gonna' boil down to personal preference or "comfort" on which custom barrel you choose, but all will be very similar in performance for the most part.
On the other hand, you can find stock barrels that are good and some that are OK and some that don't make good tomato stakes. With that in mind, stock barrels maybe range from a 2-3 to maybe an 8 if you're lucky.
I have a Rem 700 BDL in 17 Rem that has one of the best stock factory barrels I have ever shot. It is very accurate and clean-up after 50-60 rounds is a few patches and you're done with very little copper fouling. Other folks have the same rifle with bullets actually key-holing from barrel fouling after 25 rounds.
As a result, the best I can say is that you will typically get a great shooting barrel from the available custom barrel makers. If you're not happy with its performance, most barrel makers will do all they can to replace it or make it right.
If you get a good stock barrel, you've got a shooter. If you don't you have endless aggravation. At least in my experience over 35 years, I have bought some very good stock rifles that I have been satisfied with , but I have also bought a few dogs in the process. The problem is you never know until after the check is written and its all yours tax, title, & license as to what quality of stock barrel came attached to your new rifle.
All in all, there are few stock barrels that come close to a good custom barrel in overall performance. That's just my take on it. Others may agree or not. - BCB
I am new here ..but I do own a few custom barrels one pac-Nor super match and all the other are Mike Rocks but take a look at this Video from Dan Lilja I don't own a lilja and this video may be worst case senerio but you can get and idea of what a bad factory tube may look like...here is the link to the site, http://www.riflebarrels.com/
just look for the borescope video.
just look for the borescope video.
Jack Roberts
Moderator - Deceased
Welcome to the board LRD! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
BCB pretty much nailed it. Some factory barrels are very good but are pretty much a crapshoot. The better custom barrels are always very good or they will make them so. I once had a Krieger barrel that was shooting max 3/4" ten shot groups with iron sights prone in a sling. I asked him if I should expect better since I hold a master card, he said "definitely, send it back." He checked it and could find nothing visibly wrong with it but still sent me a new barrel, which was better.
Jack
BCB pretty much nailed it. Some factory barrels are very good but are pretty much a crapshoot. The better custom barrels are always very good or they will make them so. I once had a Krieger barrel that was shooting max 3/4" ten shot groups with iron sights prone in a sling. I asked him if I should expect better since I hold a master card, he said "definitely, send it back." He checked it and could find nothing visibly wrong with it but still sent me a new barrel, which was better.
Jack
bonesarelli
New member
I was thinking about a Tikka or Savage. Anybody know about the Tikka barrels? Thanks
bonesarelli
New member
Also, I just received my .308 PSS and I was thinking of purchasing the Tubb Final Finish System. Has anybody tried the product?
I had a Savage 16FSS that I really liked but it fouled horribly.
I finally used the David Tubb Final Finish System and fouling was greatly improved and accuracy was moderately improved.
I was very impressed.
It was easy to use and required no special skills other than the fact that you need to be able to load your own ammo to use it.
$bob$
I finally used the David Tubb Final Finish System and fouling was greatly improved and accuracy was moderately improved.
I was very impressed.
It was easy to use and required no special skills other than the fact that you need to be able to load your own ammo to use it.
$bob$
NM Leon
New member
Quote:
Also, I just received my .308 PSS and I was thinking of purchasing the Tubb Final Finish System. Has anybody tried the product?
It won't hurt if you follow the instructions carefully but it may or may not help depending on how rough your barrel is. Custom barrels are already hand lapped and won't see any benefit but I've seen tremendous improvement in some factory barrels (and not much in others) with firelapping.
Leon
Also, I just received my .308 PSS and I was thinking of purchasing the Tubb Final Finish System. Has anybody tried the product?
It won't hurt if you follow the instructions carefully but it may or may not help depending on how rough your barrel is. Custom barrels are already hand lapped and won't see any benefit but I've seen tremendous improvement in some factory barrels (and not much in others) with firelapping.
Leon
Bayou City Boy
New member
bonesarelli:
I have a couple of Tikka's and they are both very accurate. The barrels are supposedly the same as on a factory Sako, so the quality is quite good in comparison to other stock barrels.
A lot of folks have had good luck with Savages. I bought one about a year ago in 223 Rem and it was one of the worst factory barrels I have ever owned. It mined copper and was not accurate at all. I sold it with full disclosure to a guy who was a Savage fanatic, and I recently heard he ended up sending it back to Savage for a re-barrel.
Agin, you are rolling the dice with a factory barrel.
I would not do anything to the PSS until you check it for accuracy as Remington at one time pulled "more accurate" barreled actions for assembly into the PSS line of rifles. No use getting harsh on the barrel unless it really needs it, and then the true benefit probably won't be that much.
Bottom Line: You can't turn a bad barrel into a good barrel without Divine Internention, and I doubt that DI has ever happened to a rifle barrel. - BCB
I have a couple of Tikka's and they are both very accurate. The barrels are supposedly the same as on a factory Sako, so the quality is quite good in comparison to other stock barrels.
A lot of folks have had good luck with Savages. I bought one about a year ago in 223 Rem and it was one of the worst factory barrels I have ever owned. It mined copper and was not accurate at all. I sold it with full disclosure to a guy who was a Savage fanatic, and I recently heard he ended up sending it back to Savage for a re-barrel.
Agin, you are rolling the dice with a factory barrel.
I would not do anything to the PSS until you check it for accuracy as Remington at one time pulled "more accurate" barreled actions for assembly into the PSS line of rifles. No use getting harsh on the barrel unless it really needs it, and then the true benefit probably won't be that much.
Bottom Line: You can't turn a bad barrel into a good barrel without Divine Internention, and I doubt that DI has ever happened to a rifle barrel. - BCB
The two worst looking factory barrels I've ever owned were both Savage's. Tool marks from the deep hole drilling so bad that the grooves looked like they were lined with file teeth. Shot "okay", but coppered up horribly. Monkeyed around with firelapping on them, definitely helped, but finally just ditched them and replaced them with prechambered Douglas barrels from SSS. Much mo bettah now.
- DAA
- DAA
berettaman
New member
I have had several custom barrels over the years, including rimfire and centerfire. My experience has been that the custom barrels are much easier to clean due to the polishing of the bore, accuracy is a little better in most all cases, but sometimes not much at all unless you are a match shooter when hundreths of an inch matter a lot. Just my two cents!
chuckaholic
New member
I've a couple custom barrels and they are noticably smoother and easier to clean than any factory barrel I've ever had. They also are very good shooters. One of the reasons besides the interior finish/tolerances is that the chambering and crown are much more likely to be done with care and cutting tools in top shape. Also receivers are usually trued at the time of barrel fitting. Certainly things that would make even factory barrels more consistant.
the whole question is one of time and money. The factories simply cannot afford to spend the machining time and hand time on a barrel that the custom makers do. To do so would raise the price of their product by a large figure. To be time efficient barrels are turned at high speed taking out large chips and often overstressing the steel. The custom maker, can, because he is charging as much as 10 times for his product as the factory pays, take his time, turn the barrel slower, taking out less at a turn etc. Then comes the process of rifling and lapping. The custom maker usually does at least some hand lapping. Factories cannot afford to do this. It is very true however that factory barrels are getting better by leaps and bounds. This is true of almost all machine process products. It comes from the accuracy of the the machine and the CNC codes that run them. This is probably an oversimplification of the differences, but I think you can see the rest.
NM Leon
New member
Quote:
I have a Model 1 upper on my AR, as I understand is a Shaw barrel, is this considred a custom or a stock barrel?
I think the correct answer without more research would be maybe.
Shaw does supply barrels to some manufacturers, including Colt, and AR15 supply/aftermarket houses, including J&T and Model 1. They also sell custom barrels including helical fluted.
I'm not sure what "grade" the manufacturer barrels would be but their custom barrels aren't generally considered to be of the same quality (or price) as a Shilen or Hart "match grade" barrel, and most folks would probably consider those to be a waste of money on a gas gun anyway.
A close inspection with a Hawkeye type bore scope should tell if it has been hand lapped but the real test is in the pudding. Take it out and bench it or have a bench shooter do it for you if you aren't familiar with bench techniques and see what it will do.
Good shooting.
Leon
I have a Model 1 upper on my AR, as I understand is a Shaw barrel, is this considred a custom or a stock barrel?
I think the correct answer without more research would be maybe.
Shaw does supply barrels to some manufacturers, including Colt, and AR15 supply/aftermarket houses, including J&T and Model 1. They also sell custom barrels including helical fluted.
I'm not sure what "grade" the manufacturer barrels would be but their custom barrels aren't generally considered to be of the same quality (or price) as a Shilen or Hart "match grade" barrel, and most folks would probably consider those to be a waste of money on a gas gun anyway.
A close inspection with a Hawkeye type bore scope should tell if it has been hand lapped but the real test is in the pudding. Take it out and bench it or have a bench shooter do it for you if you aren't familiar with bench techniques and see what it will do.
Good shooting.
Leon
dan newberry
New member
I had my Remington 788 rebarreled at Douglas back in March. The guy gave me a tour of the plant when I picked up the barrel. Douglas is a big time barrel maker--pretty much a "mass producer" of button rifled custom barrels. Douglas does not hand lap their barrels, but I found that not to be necessary with mine. After a modest break in (shoot, clean, shoot, clean for about two dozen shots) it won't copper up much at all.
But to my point. The guy who gave me the tour of the Douglas plant told me that over the years they had made barrels for Winchester, Remington, and more recently Savage. I know that Remington puts better barrels on their 40X's, so it may be possible that these are Douglas barrels (though Big Green would likely never admit it). When a big rifle maker gets behind on barrel production, the impression given was that Douglas often gets a call.
So that factory barrel might be a button rifled Douglas. You never know... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
One other thing. If you ever see a barrel marked "Flagg" that's a Douglas barrel. I wasn't told why they used this pseudonym but was assured that Flagg barrels are Douglas barrels.
Dan
But to my point. The guy who gave me the tour of the Douglas plant told me that over the years they had made barrels for Winchester, Remington, and more recently Savage. I know that Remington puts better barrels on their 40X's, so it may be possible that these are Douglas barrels (though Big Green would likely never admit it). When a big rifle maker gets behind on barrel production, the impression given was that Douglas often gets a call.
So that factory barrel might be a button rifled Douglas. You never know... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
One other thing. If you ever see a barrel marked "Flagg" that's a Douglas barrel. I wasn't told why they used this pseudonym but was assured that Flagg barrels are Douglas barrels.
Dan
Bayou City Boy
New member
As Dan mentioned, Douglas has long been and still is a back-up supplier for many of the larger rifle makers. Their barrels are generally very good in quality, but are a step below some of the better barrels like Krieger, Lilja, Hart, and others simply because Douglas is a mass producer of barrels.
For quite a few years the "Premium" Douglas barrels were their air gauged barrels which even though mass produced were very uniform. They were pulled as "Premium" due to their better than average bore/groove uniformity. The overall quality of Douglas barrels is excellent for a hunting rifle, and many custom hunting rifles have been built over the years with Douglas air-gauged barrels. Most of them will shoot extremely well.
Someone asked about ER Shaw barrels, also. Shaw is also a barrel maker that supplies barrels to the trade as well as selling barrel blanks, etc. For a hunting application, their barrels are generally quite good.
However, as with most things, you get what you pay for, and the better custom barrels are hand lapped to insure bore/groove uniformity in each barrel. As a result, most will shoot better and clean up easier. That doesn't mean you won't get a good barrel from Douglas or ER Shaw however. On the other hand, you won't find too many - if currently any at all - of the REALLY GOOD folks shooting Douglas barrels at a BR Match.
- BCB
For quite a few years the "Premium" Douglas barrels were their air gauged barrels which even though mass produced were very uniform. They were pulled as "Premium" due to their better than average bore/groove uniformity. The overall quality of Douglas barrels is excellent for a hunting rifle, and many custom hunting rifles have been built over the years with Douglas air-gauged barrels. Most of them will shoot extremely well.
Someone asked about ER Shaw barrels, also. Shaw is also a barrel maker that supplies barrels to the trade as well as selling barrel blanks, etc. For a hunting application, their barrels are generally quite good.
However, as with most things, you get what you pay for, and the better custom barrels are hand lapped to insure bore/groove uniformity in each barrel. As a result, most will shoot better and clean up easier. That doesn't mean you won't get a good barrel from Douglas or ER Shaw however. On the other hand, you won't find too many - if currently any at all - of the REALLY GOOD folks shooting Douglas barrels at a BR Match.
- BCB
chuckaholic
New member
While you probally won't find any Shaw barrels on the BR circut there are some Douglas's. Douglas's aren't hand lapped but their interior dimensions are very consistent and are usually very accurate. The only knock I hear against them is they have a tendancy to foul faster with high velocity loads compared to hand lapped barrels.