7wsmsav4yotes
New member
thats not a cat track. it has the claws on the tips of the toes.
Strange paw print in the mud?
- Thread starter Tom_Lacetera
- Start date
KitFox
New member
Quote:
KitFox,
What brand and model of GPS is that?
$bob$
Magellan Meridian Gold
Quote:
thats not a cat track. it has the claws on the tips of the toes.
The presence or absence of claws cannot be used as a definite indicator of their origin.
http://www.bigcats.org/abc/identification/pumadogtracks.html
PART 1: The Reliability of Track Traits Used to Discriminate Lions from Dogs
Methods.
We applied the traits presented in the literature as discriminators between lion and dog tracks to tracks we collected during our previous 5 years of field work. We evaluated the reliability of each of these traits in the order they were presented in the introduction, as well as for three other traits that we felt might be useful.
Results.
We never saw a lion track that included claw marks but we were told by professional trackers that they occur, and some authors have recorded their occurrence (Downing 1979, Shaw, 1983). We did encounter dog tracks that had no claw marks, including tracks from 2 of the 19 dogs in our quantitative analysis. Those who have observed claw marks in lion tracks reported that they are much thinner than claw marks in dog tracks. Therefore, the presence or absence of claw marks and their relative widths in a track is an excellent discriminator, but not a perfect one.
2. Most dog tracks only showed to heel lobes. However, we encountered a fair number of dog tracks that included 3 heel lobes, and most dogs we examined had 3 lobes on their feet. This suggests that dogs walk more on their toes than lions so that relatively less weight is applied to the rear of the foot. However, when dog tracks included three heel lobes, they still differed from the 3 heel lobes of lions most of the time: the 2 outer heel lobes in dog tracks were smaller relative to the middle lobe (Figure 1), whereas mountain lion heel lobes were more equal in size and shape. Therefore, the number of heel lobes and their shapes can greatly increase our ability to discriminate dog and lion tracks, but again, not all of the time.
3. Not all dog tracks were relatively elongate, and not all lion tracks were relatively round. However, both lion and dog tracks tended to follow a similar pattern of shape -- the rear tracks usually were more elongate than the front ones. Thus, the overall elongate shape of a dog or lion track was a poor trait for discrimination.
4. Lion tracks usually included a leading toe. The second toe from the medial aspect of the track leads the third, and the first toe also usually leads the fourth. However, some lion tracks we found were nearly symmetrical, and a few dog tracks had leading toe prints similar to the lion's. Therefore, this trait should not be considered alone when differentiating dog and lion tracks.
5. We found no dog tracks that were squared off at the front of the heel pad as in lion tracks. However, some rear tracks of lions failed to show the squared front of the heel pad, and appeared pointed very much like dog tracks. This probably results when the front of the lion's heel pad fails to press firmly down into the soil. This trait, therefore, should discriminate well except when only rear tracks are visible in a track set.
We found that lion toes usually were more pointed than dog toes. However, the shapes of dog toes varied enough to question any judgement based solely on this trait.
The common lion track pattern differed from that of dogs in several ways. Lion tracks more often occurred in pairs consisting of tracks made from the same side of the body (left with left, right with right) (Frames A and B of Fig. 2) than did dog tracks. Dog tracks tended to occur more singly, usually with fairly equal distances between each track (Frame C of Fig. 2). When dog tracks occurred as pairs they usually were offset, one beside the other. Pairs of lion tracks usually included the coincidence of the rear track directly on top of the fore, or directly in front of the fore. However, lion tracks sometimes occurred singly and were spaced similar to do's tracks. Therefore, the track pattern alone is not a good track discriminator.
Figure 3 presents some of the heel pads we encountered. Although the heel pad size relative to the overall track often was similar between dogs and lions, dogs exhibited a greater variety of heel pad shapes, many of which looked quite different than lions. Therefore, many dog tracks can easily be identified based on the relative size and the shape of their heel pads, but there will always be some that look similar to the heel pads of lions.
We applied Belden's ratio of the widths of the widest toe to the heel pad to many dog and lion tracks, and found that this ratio to not work often enough to rely on it alone. A modified version of this ratio was tried in a quantitative analysis presented later in this paper.
A partial measure of the distance between the toes also was tried in the quantitative analysis of Part 2.
In addition, we noted several other traits that served as good discriminatory indicators, but were not found in the literature. A fairly good discriminator between lion and dog tracks was the presence or absence of a mound of soil between the toes and the heel pad. Dog tracks almost always exhibited a pronounced mound of soil, but we never saw one in a lion track. Therefore, this trait should contribute greatly to discrimination, but because this mound of soil was absent in some dog tracks, it should be used with other traits as well.
We noted that travel behavior served as a fairly good discriminator of lion and dog tracks. Dogs often wandered around the road in an almost erratic fashion with a variety of speeds, plus the stopped and started. Lions exhibited 2 main travel behaviors when on the road: they usually either traveled the route of least distance by traveling straight lines from corner to corner, and then cutting the corners, or they stayed to one side of the road and did not cut corners. About half of the lion track sets we encountered stayed on one side of the road. When there was heavy cover on both sides of the road a lion exhibiting this type of behavior stayed on the uphill side of the road. But, without cover on the downhill side of the road the lion would move to this side and travel along it until cover reappeared. Therefore, travel behavior can add to the discriminatory powers of the other traits mentioned above.
The angle of the long axis of the outer toes with respect to each other also seemed to be a good discriminator. This trait was tried in the analysis of Part 2.
KitFox,
What brand and model of GPS is that?
$bob$
Magellan Meridian Gold
Quote:
thats not a cat track. it has the claws on the tips of the toes.
The presence or absence of claws cannot be used as a definite indicator of their origin.
http://www.bigcats.org/abc/identification/pumadogtracks.html
PART 1: The Reliability of Track Traits Used to Discriminate Lions from Dogs
Methods.
We applied the traits presented in the literature as discriminators between lion and dog tracks to tracks we collected during our previous 5 years of field work. We evaluated the reliability of each of these traits in the order they were presented in the introduction, as well as for three other traits that we felt might be useful.
Results.
We never saw a lion track that included claw marks but we were told by professional trackers that they occur, and some authors have recorded their occurrence (Downing 1979, Shaw, 1983). We did encounter dog tracks that had no claw marks, including tracks from 2 of the 19 dogs in our quantitative analysis. Those who have observed claw marks in lion tracks reported that they are much thinner than claw marks in dog tracks. Therefore, the presence or absence of claw marks and their relative widths in a track is an excellent discriminator, but not a perfect one.
2. Most dog tracks only showed to heel lobes. However, we encountered a fair number of dog tracks that included 3 heel lobes, and most dogs we examined had 3 lobes on their feet. This suggests that dogs walk more on their toes than lions so that relatively less weight is applied to the rear of the foot. However, when dog tracks included three heel lobes, they still differed from the 3 heel lobes of lions most of the time: the 2 outer heel lobes in dog tracks were smaller relative to the middle lobe (Figure 1), whereas mountain lion heel lobes were more equal in size and shape. Therefore, the number of heel lobes and their shapes can greatly increase our ability to discriminate dog and lion tracks, but again, not all of the time.
3. Not all dog tracks were relatively elongate, and not all lion tracks were relatively round. However, both lion and dog tracks tended to follow a similar pattern of shape -- the rear tracks usually were more elongate than the front ones. Thus, the overall elongate shape of a dog or lion track was a poor trait for discrimination.
4. Lion tracks usually included a leading toe. The second toe from the medial aspect of the track leads the third, and the first toe also usually leads the fourth. However, some lion tracks we found were nearly symmetrical, and a few dog tracks had leading toe prints similar to the lion's. Therefore, this trait should not be considered alone when differentiating dog and lion tracks.
5. We found no dog tracks that were squared off at the front of the heel pad as in lion tracks. However, some rear tracks of lions failed to show the squared front of the heel pad, and appeared pointed very much like dog tracks. This probably results when the front of the lion's heel pad fails to press firmly down into the soil. This trait, therefore, should discriminate well except when only rear tracks are visible in a track set.
We found that lion toes usually were more pointed than dog toes. However, the shapes of dog toes varied enough to question any judgement based solely on this trait.
The common lion track pattern differed from that of dogs in several ways. Lion tracks more often occurred in pairs consisting of tracks made from the same side of the body (left with left, right with right) (Frames A and B of Fig. 2) than did dog tracks. Dog tracks tended to occur more singly, usually with fairly equal distances between each track (Frame C of Fig. 2). When dog tracks occurred as pairs they usually were offset, one beside the other. Pairs of lion tracks usually included the coincidence of the rear track directly on top of the fore, or directly in front of the fore. However, lion tracks sometimes occurred singly and were spaced similar to do's tracks. Therefore, the track pattern alone is not a good track discriminator.
Figure 3 presents some of the heel pads we encountered. Although the heel pad size relative to the overall track often was similar between dogs and lions, dogs exhibited a greater variety of heel pad shapes, many of which looked quite different than lions. Therefore, many dog tracks can easily be identified based on the relative size and the shape of their heel pads, but there will always be some that look similar to the heel pads of lions.
We applied Belden's ratio of the widths of the widest toe to the heel pad to many dog and lion tracks, and found that this ratio to not work often enough to rely on it alone. A modified version of this ratio was tried in a quantitative analysis presented later in this paper.
A partial measure of the distance between the toes also was tried in the quantitative analysis of Part 2.
In addition, we noted several other traits that served as good discriminatory indicators, but were not found in the literature. A fairly good discriminator between lion and dog tracks was the presence or absence of a mound of soil between the toes and the heel pad. Dog tracks almost always exhibited a pronounced mound of soil, but we never saw one in a lion track. Therefore, this trait should contribute greatly to discrimination, but because this mound of soil was absent in some dog tracks, it should be used with other traits as well.
We noted that travel behavior served as a fairly good discriminator of lion and dog tracks. Dogs often wandered around the road in an almost erratic fashion with a variety of speeds, plus the stopped and started. Lions exhibited 2 main travel behaviors when on the road: they usually either traveled the route of least distance by traveling straight lines from corner to corner, and then cutting the corners, or they stayed to one side of the road and did not cut corners. About half of the lion track sets we encountered stayed on one side of the road. When there was heavy cover on both sides of the road a lion exhibiting this type of behavior stayed on the uphill side of the road. But, without cover on the downhill side of the road the lion would move to this side and travel along it until cover reappeared. Therefore, travel behavior can add to the discriminatory powers of the other traits mentioned above.
The angle of the long axis of the outer toes with respect to each other also seemed to be a good discriminator. This trait was tried in the analysis of Part 2.
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nosetonose
New member
Take it from a houndman, IT IS A HOUND TRACK. Hound tracks are huge. Leave them in mud or snow and they will often be bigger than the lion. Claw marks do not make a dog track, but those claw marks do.
KitFox
New member
Quote:
Take it from a houndman, IT IS A HOUND TRACK. Hound tracks are huge. Leave them in mud or snow and they will often be bigger than the lion. Claw marks do not make a dog track, but those claw marks do.
The main reason I disagree with the assertion that the track is from a hound is that:
(A) the tracks went for over a half mile, with no sign of any human tracks.
(B)I'm fairly certain dogs are not allowed at the park, and of they are, they need to be on a leash.
I should have stopped to take pictures of the tracks, that did not show the claw marks, but I was too excited that day, having recently finished reading Mammal Tracks & Sign: A Guide to North American Species by Mark Elbroch.
Take it from a houndman, IT IS A HOUND TRACK. Hound tracks are huge. Leave them in mud or snow and they will often be bigger than the lion. Claw marks do not make a dog track, but those claw marks do.
The main reason I disagree with the assertion that the track is from a hound is that:
(A) the tracks went for over a half mile, with no sign of any human tracks.
(B)I'm fairly certain dogs are not allowed at the park, and of they are, they need to be on a leash.
I should have stopped to take pictures of the tracks, that did not show the claw marks, but I was too excited that day, having recently finished reading Mammal Tracks & Sign: A Guide to North American Species by Mark Elbroch.
KitFox,
Your Magellan Meridian Gold isn't as long as you think it is according to specs I found on the net. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
You state that it's "My GPS is 8.75 inches long" but the specs I found list it as 6.5" long see direct quote below and link where I found the info....
Large Pocket Size, 6.5" (h) x 2.9" (w) x 1.2" (d) / 16.5 cm x 7.08 cm x 3.05 cm
.... and I found my information here.... Magellan Meridian Gold Specs Link
If your print was made in wet conditions and if the dog was running or trotting as the photo indicates by the spreading of the pads due to impact created by running or trotting then the size is certainly not "out of spec" for a large hound dog. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
As far as pointing out that dogs are "supposed to be on leash" I would counter with the high probability of the dog not being able to read those rules and not caring if he did. Dogs can easily travel 30-40 miles a day with almost no effort, and are prone to roam a lot, especially if they are of a hunting breed. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif
"If it looks like a fish, smells like a fish, and tastes like a fish then it's very likely a fish". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif
Note that I and many other hunters here have spent thousands of hours tracking and are quite familiar with tracks of hounds. I for one have hunted deer, hogs, and rabbits with hounds for almost 50 years and have likely spent 10 hours per week 20 weeks per year for the last 20 years looking at deer and dog tracks on the ground and our dogs are usually Walker hounds some mixed with Black and Tans and Blue Ticks so this ain't my first rodeo.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
$bob$
Your Magellan Meridian Gold isn't as long as you think it is according to specs I found on the net. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
You state that it's "My GPS is 8.75 inches long" but the specs I found list it as 6.5" long see direct quote below and link where I found the info....
Large Pocket Size, 6.5" (h) x 2.9" (w) x 1.2" (d) / 16.5 cm x 7.08 cm x 3.05 cm
.... and I found my information here.... Magellan Meridian Gold Specs Link
If your print was made in wet conditions and if the dog was running or trotting as the photo indicates by the spreading of the pads due to impact created by running or trotting then the size is certainly not "out of spec" for a large hound dog. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
As far as pointing out that dogs are "supposed to be on leash" I would counter with the high probability of the dog not being able to read those rules and not caring if he did. Dogs can easily travel 30-40 miles a day with almost no effort, and are prone to roam a lot, especially if they are of a hunting breed. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif
"If it looks like a fish, smells like a fish, and tastes like a fish then it's very likely a fish". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif
Note that I and many other hunters here have spent thousands of hours tracking and are quite familiar with tracks of hounds. I for one have hunted deer, hogs, and rabbits with hounds for almost 50 years and have likely spent 10 hours per week 20 weeks per year for the last 20 years looking at deer and dog tracks on the ground and our dogs are usually Walker hounds some mixed with Black and Tans and Blue Ticks so this ain't my first rodeo.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
$bob$
KitFox
New member
Quote:
You state that it's "My GPS is 8.75 inches long" but the specs I found list it as 6.5" long see direct quote below and link where I found the info....
Large Pocket Size, 6.5" (h) x 2.9" (w) x 1.2" (d) / 16.5 cm x 7.08 cm x 3.05 cm
Looks like the first website I used for the dimensions had an 8 instead of a 6. I didn't have my gps on me, to measure it.
As for the tracks, I never questioned anyones abilities nor their skill.
Here is another track that I had on my home computer (note, I was using a very inexspensive digital camera):
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/sgbofav/track-2.jpg
You state that it's "My GPS is 8.75 inches long" but the specs I found list it as 6.5" long see direct quote below and link where I found the info....
Large Pocket Size, 6.5" (h) x 2.9" (w) x 1.2" (d) / 16.5 cm x 7.08 cm x 3.05 cm
Looks like the first website I used for the dimensions had an 8 instead of a 6. I didn't have my gps on me, to measure it.
As for the tracks, I never questioned anyones abilities nor their skill.
Here is another track that I had on my home computer (note, I was using a very inexspensive digital camera):
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y144/sgbofav/track-2.jpg
nosetonose
New member
KitFox I have lost dogs for days, I have a friend that had a hound out for 32 days a couple years ago. Lack of human tracks means as much as the claws. If it had no claws I would tell you it was a hound. The fact that it has claws in the mud means nothing. But the size of those claws does. But the important thing is the shape of that track. Absolutely a dog. Justin
KitFox
New member
Quote:
KitFox I have lost dogs for days, I have a friend that had a hound out for 32 days a couple years ago. Lack of human tracks means as much as the claws. If it had no claws I would tell you it was a hound. The fact that it has claws in the mud means nothing. But the size of those claws does. But the important thing is the shape of that track. Absolutely a dog. Justin
The second photo did not show the pronounced claw marks on the top most toes.
Quote:
OK, its NOT a dog track.
Y'all are just wasting yer time ...... didn't you hear the man..... its a CAT track. Plus....what would a HOUNDSMAN know 'bout a hound track anyways.....sheesh.
Man said it's a cat ...... must be a cat.
Again i'll reiterate my point that I'm not trying to argue with anyone. I'm also not debating anyone's tracking ability. What I am trying to do is engage in polite discourse about the origin of the track. It is fine to "agree to disagree." /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
No need to be pedantic, and engage in an "internet pissing match" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
Try this page, and look at the similarities of my first picture, with their picture of the Mt. Lion's hind foot.
http://www.bear-tracker.com/caninevsfeline.html
Their Picture:
http://www.bear-tracker.com/catfeatures2.gif
Then my picture:
http://img.geocaching.com/cache/log/639d3b7a-db6d-4c76-a674-81e91626ba62.jpg
Does anyone have any good hound tracks in mud, for comparison? I doubt my two Queensland Heelers have paws anywhere as big as a hound.
KitFox I have lost dogs for days, I have a friend that had a hound out for 32 days a couple years ago. Lack of human tracks means as much as the claws. If it had no claws I would tell you it was a hound. The fact that it has claws in the mud means nothing. But the size of those claws does. But the important thing is the shape of that track. Absolutely a dog. Justin
The second photo did not show the pronounced claw marks on the top most toes.
Quote:
OK, its NOT a dog track.
Y'all are just wasting yer time ...... didn't you hear the man..... its a CAT track. Plus....what would a HOUNDSMAN know 'bout a hound track anyways.....sheesh.
Man said it's a cat ...... must be a cat.
Again i'll reiterate my point that I'm not trying to argue with anyone. I'm also not debating anyone's tracking ability. What I am trying to do is engage in polite discourse about the origin of the track. It is fine to "agree to disagree." /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
No need to be pedantic, and engage in an "internet pissing match" /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
Try this page, and look at the similarities of my first picture, with their picture of the Mt. Lion's hind foot.
http://www.bear-tracker.com/caninevsfeline.html
Their Picture:
http://www.bear-tracker.com/catfeatures2.gif
Then my picture:
http://img.geocaching.com/cache/log/639d3b7a-db6d-4c76-a674-81e91626ba62.jpg
Does anyone have any good hound tracks in mud, for comparison? I doubt my two Queensland Heelers have paws anywhere as big as a hound.
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Mrpacojack
New member
That is not a mountain Lion track, You will not see any claw marks with the print. a cat will walk in more of a staight line and on the back of the pad you will see 3 little knobs. that is most likely a domestic dog or maybe you have wolfs.But I guarentee you it is not any kind of cat, to narrow and pointy
Mrpacojack
New member
See in this picture how wide across the toes and how separate the toes are
t=_blank]http://i11.tinypic.com/2vdmzyv.jpg[/img]
t=_blank]http://i11.tinypic.com/2vdmzyv.jpg[/img]
nosetonose
New member
Pacojack, nice to see you on this site. I knew that cur was going to get you serious about coyote. Justin (dog broke)
Guys, it is decided. Im a novice lion hunter, but pacojack is a Guru. If he says its a dog you can bet the farm on it.
Guys, it is decided. Im a novice lion hunter, but pacojack is a Guru. If he says its a dog you can bet the farm on it.
KitFox
New member
Quote:
That is not a mountain Lion track, You will not see any claw marks with the print. a cat will walk in more of a staight line and on the back of the pad you will see 3 little knobs. that is most likely a domestic dog or maybe you have wolfs.But I guarentee you it is not any kind of cat, to narrow and pointy
On occasion, thier claws reveal themselves. My second picture did not show the claw marks. They can walk in more than a straight line, according to my tracking book, as well as what I have seen in the field. Another problem with my picture is that the soil texture is not conducive to great tracks. It is a clay mixture with lots ground up rock.
This is a fun discussion, and thanks for the picture Mrpacojack.
I made a collage for discussion sakes. The upper left photo is a known Mt. Lion track, the upper right is your dog's track. Bottom left is "bigfoots." Bottom right is a Mt. Lion track.
When you compare the two Mt. Lion tracks, with my picture, you notice that the gap between the toes, and the heal pad is much larger than the gap on your dog's track. Notice the shape of your dog's toes, they are rounded, whereas the toes on the Mt. lion tracks, as well as my track are triangular in shape.
Thanks for the fun discussion so far.
Track Collage
That is not a mountain Lion track, You will not see any claw marks with the print. a cat will walk in more of a staight line and on the back of the pad you will see 3 little knobs. that is most likely a domestic dog or maybe you have wolfs.But I guarentee you it is not any kind of cat, to narrow and pointy
On occasion, thier claws reveal themselves. My second picture did not show the claw marks. They can walk in more than a straight line, according to my tracking book, as well as what I have seen in the field. Another problem with my picture is that the soil texture is not conducive to great tracks. It is a clay mixture with lots ground up rock.
This is a fun discussion, and thanks for the picture Mrpacojack.
I made a collage for discussion sakes. The upper left photo is a known Mt. Lion track, the upper right is your dog's track. Bottom left is "bigfoots." Bottom right is a Mt. Lion track.
When you compare the two Mt. Lion tracks, with my picture, you notice that the gap between the toes, and the heal pad is much larger than the gap on your dog's track. Notice the shape of your dog's toes, they are rounded, whereas the toes on the Mt. lion tracks, as well as my track are triangular in shape.
Thanks for the fun discussion so far.
Track Collage
I think Yellowhammer showed the difference best in one of his post a while back on this same subject.
K9's make an X with there print. Cats do not. Both of the pictures you show cleary have a traceable X in them. The center point for the X is just above the heel pad.
Those are dog tracks, even a large coyote will leave a big print in the mud or sand..
LIGER ???? This is a full sized spray bottle by the way..
K9's make an X with there print. Cats do not. Both of the pictures you show cleary have a traceable X in them. The center point for the X is just above the heel pad.
Those are dog tracks, even a large coyote will leave a big print in the mud or sand..
LIGER ???? This is a full sized spray bottle by the way..