Study: Shotguns not safer for deer hunting

Christopher

New member
This happened in Penn.

Study: Shotguns not safer for deer hunting
Ballistics tests, prompted by accidental shooting of Valley woman, give surprise results.
By Christian Berg Of The Morning Call
Forcing Lehigh Valley deer hunters to use shotguns instead of rifles wouldn't boost public safety, according to a state-sponsored study released Wednesday.

The study, done in response to the November 2004 accident in which Casey Burns of North Whitehall was hit in the head by a stray rifle bullet, says shotgun slugs are much more prone to ricochets than rifle bullets. And in some cases, the study says, slugs can travel farther than a bullet.



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RIFLES VS. SHOTGUNS FINDINGSMyth: Many people, including state hunting regulators, long have assumed shotguns are safer than rifles for deer hunting because shotgun slugs don't travel as far as rifle bullets.
Reality: A study released Wednesday indicates shotgun slugs are much more prone to ricochets than rifle bullets and, because of that, can travel farther than rifle bullets in common hunting scenarios.

What it means: The study's findings make it unlikely the state Game Commission will expand shotgun-only areas to cover the Lehigh Valley.
Related Stories• PDF FILE: Hunting Safety -- Shotguns vs. Rifles
• Hunting stray-bullet lawsuit settled
• Hunters worry the stray-bullet settlement leaves law in 'limbo' Lehigh Valley Local Links

Officials said the surprising results contradict conventional wisdom and make it unlikely the Lehigh Valley will be added to existing shotgun-only areas around Philadelphia and Pittsburgh.

Using rifles for deer hunting has been prohibited since 1964 in parts of counties bordering Philadelphia, since 1979 in Allegheny County and since 1991 in all of Bucks, Chester, Delaware, Montgomery and Philadelphia counties.

''We were just making people feel better, when in fact we weren't making them safer at all,'' Mike Schmitt, deputy executive director of the Pennsylvania Game Commission, said after reviewing the results, unveiled at a meeting of the Legislative Budget and Finance Committee, a joint panel of the Legislature.

Despite the findings, Burns' mother, Allie Dickinson, continues to support the expansion of shotgun-only regulations.

''It can't be safe, and there's no study that can convince me of that,'' said Dickinson, who launched a campaign to expand shotgun-only restrictions after the accident. ''If he would have shot a shotgun that day instead of a rifle, it would not have hit Casey. I truly believe that.''

Dickinson, whose daughter survived the shooting, also said that if shotguns are as dangerous -- or even more dangerous -- than rifles, perhaps both types of firearms should be prohibited in residential areas.

''If that's the case, then maybe we need to look into archery-only areas,'' she said. ''Lehigh County has changed a lot over the last 15-20 years, and they have not adjusted the [hunting] laws. That needs to be fixed.''

The state House authorized the safety study in March 2005 to inject scientific data into the rifle versus shotgun debate. The project was coordinated by the legislative committee, which hired Mountaintop Technologies of Johnstown, Cambria County, at $41,576.

The study's conclusions are based on ballistics analysis of shots fired by deer rifles, shotguns and muzzleloaders. Ballistics data were calculated for Mountaintop by the Army's Armament Research, Development and Engineering Center at Picatinny Arsenal in New Jersey.

Many people assume shotguns are safer than rifles because they have a much shorter maximum range. That assumption has been used as the basis for shotgun-only hunting regulations in Pennsylvania and elsewhere. Some states, including New Jersey, Ohio and Delaware, don't allow any rifle use by deer hunters.

However, the study says none of the states contacted by researchers could provide scientific data to back up their assumptions, indicating this may be the first comprehensive look at the rifle versus shotgun issue.

Officials also noted that technological innovations introduced in recent decades -- such as rifled shotgun barrels, sabot slugs and gas-sealed muzzleloader bullets -- probably have eroded whatever safety advantages once existed.

''Technology has changed for the shotgun and muzzleloader, and the difference between them and a [deer] rifle is decreasing from what it was years ago,'' Mountaintop consultant Todd Bacastow said.

The study examined ballistics data on three popular deer-hunting guns: a .30-06 rifle, a 12-gauge shotgun and a .50-caliber muzzleloader. The rifle had the greatest maximum range at 2.64 miles, followed by the shotgun at 1.97 miles and the muzzleloader, which generally uses heavier and slower bullets, at 1.74 miles.

However, Bacastow noted that to achieve maximum range, shots must be fired at a 35-degree angle, which is highly unlikely in a hunting situation. He noted that a bullet fired at a 35-degree angle toward a deer 100 yards away would fly 210 feet above the animal's back.

Most shots fired by hunters are relatively flat, and even a slight aiming error usually results in a shot less than 5 degrees above the horizon. When shots are fired at an elevation of 5 degrees, the total distances traveled, including ricochets, are 1.66 miles for a rifle bullet and 1.3 miles for a shotgun slug.

When shots are fired holding the guns level 3 feet off the ground, the shotgun slug will travel 0.99 of a mile, 16 percent farther than the rifle bullet will travel under the same circumstances.

The reason, Bacastow said, is that slugs tend to hold together better and lose less energy during ricochets than rifle bullets. Therefore, slugs often can travel farther than rifle bullets in common hunting scenarios.

The 67-page report notes the muzzleloader bullet traveled the shortest distance in all test scenarios and therefore is less risky than rifle bullets and slugs. The report recommends investigating the possibility of developing specialized bullets and slugs that would break apart on impact and reduce the number of ricochets.

Sen. Lisa M. Boscola, D-Northampton, a member of the Senate Game and Fisheries Committee, said she was impressed by the study.

''There are a lot of emotions when something like [the Burns accident] happens, but the whole point–was to get scientific evidence to back up anything the Game Commission wants to do,'' Boscola said. In 2005, she helped organize a meeting between Burns and Game Commission officials.

''We are dealing with a perception that shotguns are safer than rifles when hunting deer, but that's not always the case, and this study proves it,'' Boscola said.

She said Burns' family should be pleased that efforts to bolster hunting safety have gotten so much attention. ''They should be proud that there's some good coming out of that tragedy. There's a real concern out there that this does not ever happen again.''

Schmitt, the Game Commission official, said his agency can use the study's findings to decide about firearms restrictions and improve its mandatory hunter education program. ''We can't guarantee there won't be another Casey Burns some day, but we can–reduce the risk.''

Burns, who was 18 and seven months pregnant at the time of the accident, was about a half-mile from the hunter whose shot hit her. Though critically wounded, she delivered a healthy baby girl two months later and has recovered from her injuries.

She filed a civil lawsuit against the hunter and owner of the land where he was hunting. The case ended last month when Burns and landowner Daniel Haas agreed to a financial settlement.
 
WOW, more than I am willing to read.

However, we can now hunt deer with rifles in two counties on NY that were ALWAYS off limits to rifles. What I couldn't believe is how many other hunters I talked to were against rifles in the months preceding the first time rifles were going to be legal in said counties.

Now these counties border PA where rifles were always legal. In over the 25 years I have hunted these two counties the population has increased to almost double if I had to guess. Bottom line is, after two years now hunting with rifles, the hunting accidents have gone DOWN, unlike some naysayers were predicting. And I can finally hunt deer with the firearms that I could only use in PA to hunt deer. COLOR ME HAPPY ! ! !
 
I think NY ers need to hunt with shotguns.....leave the rifles to experienced hunters in the south /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif
 
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I'm betting they'll have special slugs developed, make it required ammo and keep it shotgun. (At least that is what Minnesota /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif would probably do)
 
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I think NY ers need to hunt with shotguns.....leave the rifles to experienced hunters in the south /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif



Some sections of NY. All of NJ, and all of OH (pretty sure all of OH) do for deer.

OH is no buckshot though I believe. NJ is buckshot or slugs.
 
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I think NY ers need to hunt with shotguns.....leave the rifles to experienced hunters in the south /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif



Are you referring to one of those southern states that has over 15 million people and only 7 last names. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
I've been using a slug gun for deer for so long, I don't even want to use a rifle.

That Lightfield Hybred out of my Marlin 512 is like a lethal death ray. Deer don't even run after they're hit, they just drop.

But with regard to the topic, it's all moot. Shotgun, rifle, pistol, muzzleloader, as long as you follow the following rule of firearm safety, they are all equally safe:

"Know your target, and what's beyond".
 
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I think NY ers need to hunt with shotguns.....leave the rifles to experienced hunters in the south /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif



Are you referring to one of those southern states that has over 15 million people and only 7 last names. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif



Hey just cuz he married his sister...errrr....ummmm...nevermind! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
Christopher

I hope the Ohio DNR looks at that hard. Also you can't even use rifle cartridges in pistols there. They have to be straight wall cases.

Always struck me as strange because the states surrounding Ohio allow the use of rifles for deer hunting. Go figure.

Best wishes, Bill
 
I grew up in Eastern Va and believe it or not, for many many years all we could use was shotguns and buckshot. Talk about dangerous! To make matters worse, everybody hunted with dogs. (I know, I know, a horrible way to hunt Deer, but I just didn't know any better, finally wised up about 20 years ago.)

You put 20 or 25 guys in a patch of woods, turn loose a couple packs of dogs and let the carnage begin. Men standing in lines through the woods about 150 yds apart, or closer and herds of Deer running back and forth through them. Sometimes even surrounding a woodlot and everybody slinging shot into the middle. Everybody's blasting away with buckshot and you could commonly hear it ripping through the trees and brush. I knew a guy who got hit square in the chest by a 00 pellet fired by the next stander, who he could see about 150 yds down the road. The guy had fired directly into the woods in front of him, close to a 90% angle from the victim and the pellet evidently bounced off a tree, made a left turn and struck him dead center in the chest. Luckily the pellet had lost most of it's energy and did only minor damage.

The general consensus of opinion in those Eastern counties, even among hunters, was that the ground was too flat to safely use a rifle. That, like the Penn lawmakers thought, buckshot wouldn't travel as far, therefore it was safer. Evidently nobody ever stopped to consider how far a rifle bullet would actually make it traveling through a thick forest, or that buckshot would bounce around like a pinball from anything short of a dead on tree strike.

Some of these counties actually banned the use of slugs, buckshot only, slugs were as bad as rifle bullets. Also, in the counties that allowed slugs, most of the hunt clubs banned them anyway. Personally, if I have to stand a couple hundred yds into a thick woodlot and let somebody blindly fire a randomly aimed shot in my general direction, I'd much rather it be a single bullet that's gonna disintegrate first time it hits something than a handful of buckshot that's gonna spray the woods like a fire hose and ricochet to boot. I heard the stuff rattling the woods all around me too many times in the past.

Thankfully times are changing. Over the past couple decades both the hunters and DNR have been wising up. Maybe the popularity of MZL hunting had something to do with it. The same buckshot only counties had to abide by a statewide 2 week MZL season prior to regular hunting season. People were using single projectile rifles and nobody was getting killed, at least not by shots fired from distant hunters.

Probably 2/3 of Va counties have always allowed rifle hunting, the other 1/3 have been restricted to shotguns basically forever and I'd be willing to bet that a detailed study of hunting (shooting) fatalities would show a higher incidence of accidents in the shotgun counties.

Now there are several Eastern counties that have changed the laws to allow rifle hunting. Most require that you hunt from an elevated stand, but we usually do that anyway. Some don't even require the elevation.

Things are looking up. Now all we need is a ban on dog style hunting and the world will be right again. There's zillions of Deer there and they have a buffet of Corn, Soybeans and Peanuts to thrive on. A few survive to become real monsters, but most fall prey to dog hunters as yearlings. "If it's brown, it's down", that's their motto.

Grrrrrrr !!
 
Come on. You guys cant tell me you belive that if you hold a 30-06 3ft off the ground and 12 gauge 3 ft off the ground and fire both of them that the 12 gauge is going to travel farther. I shoot hornady sst slugs out of my marlin 512 which gives me the capability to shoot 200 yards not 500-600 yards like i can with the 30-06. Whoever did there testing is a moron. And to get that 200 yard shot when im sighted dead on at 100 yards i have to aim an inch above the deers back where the 30-06 sighted dead on at 100 yards i aim at the same point at 200 yards because it is much flatter shooting. And what where they shooting out of the muzzleloader. My 45 cal and 50 cal are both much more accurate at distance than my 12 gauge. With the bullet selections out now for both of them a 250 yard shot is not out of the question where no matter what i shoot out of my 12 gauge a 150 yard shot is out of the question.
LOL These people crack me up.
 
Bigmike, I believe what they are saying is that a slug doesn't have as much velocity so it will ricochet when a high velocity rifle shot under the same situation will either desintigrate or bury itself into whatever it hits....
 
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I think NY ers need to hunt with shotguns.....leave the rifles to experienced hunters in the south /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif



Are you referring to one of those southern states that has over 15 million people and only 7 last names. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif



I really met my wife at a family reunion..... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
 
If any lawmaker or DNR official actually thinks that a shotgun slug will travel further than a rifle bullet their heads are full of sand.
There are freak accidents that happen( extremes )in every endever that society participate in they are accidents
Ship happens
 
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I think NY ers need to hunt with shotguns.....leave the rifles to experienced hunters in the south /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif



Are you referring to one of those southern states that has over 15 million people and only 7 last names. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif



I really met my wife at a family reunion..... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif



GOOD ONE BAMA /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
 
Actually bigmike22 .. Balistically speaking they are right on..

The people that you called morons are the US Army. Read the quote..

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Ballistics data were calculated for Mountaintop by the Army's Armament Research, Development and Engineering Center at Picatinny Arsenal in New Jersey

.


How can you call them morons???? .....James L.
 
Read it again, This includes ricochets.


"The reason, Bacastow said, is that slugs tend to hold together better and lose less energy during ricochets than rifle bullets. Therefore, slugs often can travel farther than rifle bullets in common hunting scenarios."

"Guns dont kill people, people kill people" Its not the firearm you use its the manner you use it in. If its just a blank space between your ears then you could hurt someone no matter what you are hunting with.

The sad part of the whole story is how she sued the landowner who gave that guy permission, and he had to settle. Ever wonder why there is so much posted land in PA and landowners unwilling to permit access? They should not be held liable for an accident like this.
 
I believe it!

High speed rifle bullets usually disintegrate when they hit something. Those big lead slugs ricochet forever. I have fired a lead 44mag in the desert and watched it ricochet 10 times before I lost sight of it.

Jack
 
I went out today to do some test firing today. If i placed my 12 gauge on a rest at 3 feet high as they stated and fired it it traveled less than 250 yards. I did the same with the 30-06 and i ran out of room on my range the is 400 yards long. And as to the ricochet part of it. Yes because of the slower speeds the 12 gauge may ricochet more. I could have bought that but i fired both the 30-06 and 12 gauge into 3/4 inch steel plates to see the results. They both penetrated almost the same at very close distance and both literally blew up. At 50 yards the 06 still splintered and so did the 12 gauge. The 12 gauge did hold more weight after impact at 50 yards. But because of the heavier weight of the 12 gauge over the 30-06 bullet and the total speed of the 12 gauge i dont think it would travel very far after impact to ricochet very far. I shot at the steel plates quarting away into a sand bank to see the ricochet effect. The 12 gauge at close range still penetrated the plates but barely traveled beyond them after impact. where the 06 hit the steel plate and ricocheted at least 50 yards and hit the sand bank. I ran out of room to see how far it would go. the 12 gauge would hit the steel plate and hit the ground and not the bank at about 25 yards away. Yes you can tell i was bored today and had alot of time on my hands.There argument does not hold weight. The military still has idiots just like every other job in the world.
 
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