Ten Best "Ever" Smokeless Powder era guns??

Greg_Meyer

Greg_Meyer

New member
A comment in another thread got me wondering about what would be considered "one of the best" ever produced guns in the smokeless powder era. This has to include civilian and military and has to be a "best" on a mix of reasons....

I don't have a final list of my own, yet. I am almost wanting to see nominations and debate before I decide my ten best.

Certainly commercial success has to count, but not necessarily volume produced/sold, although that could be a factor. Obviously a handmade $100,000.00 plus Purdey double rifle won't have the numbers, but it could be a best, if it is "the best" tool for the job. But, that cost factor could be a limiting factor on the other side. If it costs that much, is it really a "best" one. On the other hand, the Browning designed Colt .45 ACP Government model is probably going to be on the final list as it approaches it's 100th anniversary, just for that fact alone. And, it has never been "cheap", but it has also not really been out of reach for anyone who wanted one.

Finally, I would think we are sophisticated enough to be able to set our criteria tight enough that just a "pre-64 Model 70" is not specific enough... But, that a .270 pre-64 Winchester would be... Likewise, a "Savage Bolt" would not be a "best" (might fall into a for sure best design, but not specific enough for a best gun).

I also would not think that a short time is a limiting factor, either.

Finally, here are a few that I think merit consideration:

Colt Government Model in .45ACP
Colt New Army in .45LC
Winchester Model 94 in .30-30
British SMLE in .303
AK47 in 7.63X39
Ruger 10/22
Remington 1100 2 3/4" in .12ga
 
1894 30-30 with a 20" barrel has to be among the top, as you suggest.

Jack O'Conner made the quintessential pre-64 model 70 in .270 win famous. I'm blessed enough to own a 1956 model, which belonged to my uncle.
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When you see a deer drop like a hammer with every good hit of a 130 grain bullet, you really look no further...

And now for the heresy, some will say...

The Glock 17 (9mm). Always ready, never a failure. Pretty is as pretty does.
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The AK's are great, but work best these days with a diaper on your head. Bad juju.

The AR is not a reliable enough battle rifle (ask any soldier who has fielded one, so it cannot be there)...

So for the battle rifle category, I'd have to say the M1 Garand. They had their issues, but none so egregious as the M16 had in Viet Nam.

Dan
 
10 best huh? Tough nut to crack. IMO, no handgun would make the list. Rifles are just that much better at all things cept 1.

Win 94 is tops. I'd throw in the Springfield and the Enfield. Mauser 98 is a duh. The Garand, heck ya. That gives me 5 so far. Lets toss in the Win M70 and a Marlin lever gun. Remington 700 should be on the list. I'd put the CURRENT AR/M16/M14 variants on there. Now I'm at 9 and kinda stuck. Let's toss in a Savage 110.

You'll notice that I don't have and will never have the AK on the list. IMO, it's not a good gun. It just isn't. People think that because it's reliable and was made in the 100's of millions that it must be great. It's not. It's a mass produced POS with sloppy tolerances, weird ergos, ugly, non-accurate fire arm. A guns first test should always be reliability and the AK meets this with flying colors. After that it falls flat on it's face in every category a rifle should be judged.

CB
 
Got to disagree on M16/M4 not being among the top ten. I am one of those soldiers that HAVE fielded the weapon and have NOT had any issue's in battle. If you take care of your weapon, she will take care of you! There are more than a few "insurgents" that would disagree also. Heck, even the military channel would disagree on your lack of inclusion. I believe the Browning 50BMG would have to be on this list as well if we are counting some of the best of the best.
 
Jason,

I have to agree with two statements (Three actually). I was not happy to have my M14 replaced with an M16. I trained up on the M14 in Boot Camp and kept mine through my being stationed at 29 Palms and Pendleton. However, The M16 was evolving by the time I got sent to Vietnam and it had its own virtues. I do know that in the beginning it was anything but reliable for several reasons. So, I agree that (1) the M16 was not a good weapon in the beginning.

Now, (2)I have to agree that the new M16 variants are much better. I would not necessarily want an M4 for "all" purposes, but I have to agree that after nore than 40 years of service, the M16 deserves its recognition as a "good" rifle. Maybe not great (in my opinion, just a little underpowered), but definitely "good+".

And,(3)The .50 Cal Browning is the result of a stroke of genius... What hasn't it been mounted to or used for? Airplanes, ships, boats, trucks, tanks, jeeps, humvees, (probably can find a mount for horseback and camels if you look). And, the .50Cal round is an unbelieveable performer. However, I was primarily considering "man portable"... for my list. But, if it was just a little bit lighter I might just prefer to carry it over anytghing else... It is a "show stopper" when you want to stop the show!
 
Keeping the list to those that the "normal" person can afford/acquire reasonably...And you might find in the average persons safe..I didn't get caliber specific on most as that is a personal preference/use intended factor...

Mine were more on the availability, commonly owned, length of service, as well as popularity of brand/type...There is also some of a 'historical significance' factor involved...

S&W Revolvers (specifically the Mod 19 .357 magnum)
M1 Garand (30-06 caliber)
Mauser Rifles
Sig Arms Pistols
Winchester '94 Rifles
Colt 1911 .45acp
Glock Pistol (not caliber specific)
Remington Rifle
Winchester Shotgun
Hawken Syle Black Powder Rifle
 
I gotta go with the Sako Vixen mentioned in the other thread.
Also, the Savage Model 99 is a CLASSIC, one of the best lever action rifle designs ever.
The Winchester Model 94 is another.
The Winchester Model 52 Sporter, made right after WW II and thru the 1950's, with the micromotion trigger is another Best Rifle Ever Produced.
The Marlin Model 39 is a timeless rifle, with it being sold for at least 70 years, maybe more. It is one of the very best designs ever.
Handguns: The Colt Python, and the 1911 45 are two of them. And, the Colt Woodsman is another. The Smith Model 29.
The above designs had stood the test of time, and that's why I included them.
This is all I can think of off the top.
You guys surely have some favorites too. Let's hear about them...
 
some repeats on my list....
parker shotguns,
rem 722,
ithaca model 37,
sav 99,
win mdl's 1894, 52, 12,
ruger #1, mk1, 10/22
.....M60B
 
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M1 Garand is great.

Ar15/16, I dunno, was never issued one.

But! In between was the M14. I don't doubt that if patton had lived long enough he would have rescinded his opinion of the M1 as the greatest battle weapon ever devised. Before the M14, full auto and high capacity was pretty much limited to the BAR and the Thompson. The M14 put that kind of firepower in the hands of every soldier in a squad or platoon.

Other than that little rant, I like:

the 98 mauser
Pre 64 M70,
Mossberg 500
Swiss Vetterli (straddled BP and smokeless)
Sako/Tikka
Krag Jorgenson
Rem 700
Ruger #1
 
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From the following article...

http://www.allmilitary.com/board/viewtopic.php?id=19756


"The vast majority of soldiers -- 92 percent in a recent survey -- say they are content with the M4, a carbine, essentially a shorter version of the M16 rifle. Its truncated barrel provides greater maneuverability in close quarters combat such as the urban environments soldiers face today in places like Baghdad, and the smaller round means spare ammunition is smaller and lighter. So why the need to change it?

The weapon, in use for more than 40 years, has a number of problems, which are addressed by newer guns. The M4 tends to jam at a much higher rate than newer weapons -- in a 2007 dust test, the weapon jammed at four to seven times the rate of the competition.

Colt, manufacturer of the M4, says if the weapons are meticulously maintained and cleaned on a regular basis, jams can be kept to a minimum. However, many of the new firearms operating systems require less maintenance to achieve the same effect."

And from this page...
http://israelmilitary.net/showthread.php?s=74b63fddb991d7f452a050f76f2be753&t=4281

"The M-16 has long been the subject of complaints by IDF soldiers. It was designed for Vietnam-style tropical climates and frequently jams in the desert. In addition, most of the rifles Israel received from the US were army surplus and in need of refurbishing. Despite this, the M-16 replaced Israeli-made Uzi and Galil guns, which were sold mostly to clients in Africa and South America."

All FWIW...

Dan
 
I'll play
battle rifles
1. the Lee Enfield No4 Mk1 Savage production. Not as accurate as the M1, Mauser, Or the 03A3 but it was minute of bad guy at decent ranges and would do so packed with mud.

2. Mosin Nagant 91/30. Not the most elegant rifle but it had long range punch and you could beat the heck out of them and they would still shoot well.

3. Colt 1911. what can I say designed by John Browning.

4. M2 .50cal machine gun. Again John Browning plus it is still one of the most feared guns on the battle field.

5. Winchester 1994 in 30-30. The first commercially available smokeless powder round and the gun made for it. Plus it is still putting meat on the table 115 years later.

6. Ruger Flat Top Blackhawk. It brought the Single Action revolver into the 20th century in terms of strength and accuracy.

7. Savage 99. Sleek and came chambered in rounds like the .308Win with out having a bulky box mag in front of the lever.

8. M40A1 U.S.M.C. sniper rifle. It may be a 700 action but by the time the Marines at PMC got done with it it was another beast completely. It brought swift death to our nations enemys for close to 40 years.

9. Thompsons Sub-Machinegun. Out standing gun plenty of power, fairly accurate, reliable, and Winston Churchill liked it.

10. Browning BAR. John Browning again. It brought the power of the machine gun to the small infantry unit. Originally chambered for the 30-06 it allowed U.S. troops in 2 World Wars and Korea to bring high rates of fire to the field. Excelent power, accurate, and reliable. Plus you can buy it in civilian form in popular hunting cartridges.
 
these are not in any specific order, just as I think of them.

1. win 94 in 30-30
2. the 1911
3. Browning Auto 5
4. Win model 12
5. M1 Garand
6. m14
7. Model 70
8. smith 29
9. 10/22
10. springfield 1903
 
I tend to think about "the greatest" as firearms that changed the game forever. My list is more or less in chronalogical order

Pennsylvia Flintlock rifle
Henry repeating rifle
Winchester 1873
Mauser M98
1911
Winchester mod.12
Browning A5
Remington 1100
Ruger 10/22
 
I was thinking about this thread when I went to bed last nite..
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Two guns popped up for me, one was the Winchester Model 12, and someone has mentioned it. The other was the Winchester Model 21. Both guns MAY be the best designed guns in their class, ever. The Fox Stirlingworth, and the Parker double barreled shotguns are near legends.
Being a Army guy, I also have to include the Garand and the Springfield as "Best of Class".
Someone already mentioned John Browning designs; they are perennial, enduring, and outstanding designs, like the A-5, and all of the wanna be's.
Mauser Model 98's, a whole revolution in firearms designs came from Mausers. I was lucky to find an Argentine Model 98 in 7x57, so I bought it and use it regularly. Paid $175 for it 25 years ago.
 
In no particular order

S&W K and N frame revolvers
Colt 1911
Remington 700
Remington 11-87 LC
Mauser 98
Winchester Model 70
Ruger 10/22
Colt 45 Single Action Army
Browning Citori
 
Originally Posted By: 2muchgunNagant? You gotta be kiddin'.........
Nope not kidding. You can drag them threw [beeep] and back load them and still hit the target. I never said they were pretty but if you look at what the Fins did with them you will gain a good respect for them.
 
Originally Posted By: BrentWinI tend to think about "the greatest" as firearms that changed the game forever. My list is more or less in chronalogical order

Pennsylvia Flintlock rifle
Winchester 1873


I thought we were talking smokeless guns. But I like your thinking.
 
Well here's my choices..

Winchester pre 64 Model 70

Winchester pre 64 Model 12.

Colt Model 1911 in .45 ACP

Smith & Wesson K and N frame revolvers.

Remington Model 870 Wingmasters

Remington Model 700 rifles.

Winchester Model 1894 rifles.

M-1 Garand.

M-16 AR-15 M-4 carbines.

Mauser 98.
 


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