limbhanger10
Well-known member
I shoot 80 PSPs out of my .243.
I have about 2000 coyotes to shoot before I have to get into another bullet.
I have about 2000 coyotes to shoot before I have to get into another bullet.
The great rifle debate
- Thread starter Huntingdog
- Start date
K22-hornet
Well-known member
I found the 223 class cartridges start to run out of steam around the 300yd mark, and the number of runners and floppers start to increase.
When I searched for private land to hunt, I always took the 243. I needed dead coyotes to show the landowner, and the 243 kills them a lot farther than the 223's.
When I searched for private land to hunt, I always took the 243. I needed dead coyotes to show the landowner, and the 243 kills them a lot farther than the 223's.
What speed are you getting with that bullet?
spotstalkshoot
Well-known member
Twist rate on the varmint bullets doesn't just matter for accuracy/bullet stability. It also contributes to terminal performance (penetration/wound channel). Alot of the gas guns are 1/8 twist. With lighter fast bullets the higher rotation rate has been less consistent entry wounds(in my experience). Currently I'm running the old 52 gr Amax in my 1/12 twist 223, drt on almost all the coyote so far. When I ran them in a 1/8 223 they were 50/50 drt. Didn't lose any but did have one go 100 yards. Almost all my shots are under 200, but I would take a 300. 400 probably not with prairie dog bullets.
17remhunter
Active member
I have way to much respect and admiration for coyotes. Thats why i shoot a 17 Remington for me its all about the final destination of a beautiful well put up coyote pelt damage is unacceptable for me. So I only hunt them when pelts are prime. Before my 17 Remington I shot a 222 with FMJ bullets Had to track at times snow made it easy. This is just me.
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Huntingdog
New member
I ended up putting together a .243 with one of the howa barreled actions and making it a dedicated predator rifle. Very excited about it, just about finished dialing in a load for it. 75gr vmax just below 3500fps. I’m hoping to put it to the test over the next few days
Huntingdog
New member
17remhunter - I also respect and admire coyotes/predators… which is why I don’t want to track/sometimes lose runners. Better to put them down quickly and possibly need to sew than to wound. Just my thoughts
Sgt_Mike
Well-known member
Funny I did a calculation of RPM which is simply based on Velocity and the rate of twist which is not caliber specific
(ROT = Rate of twist express in 1 (turn)- inches of barrel, only spelled out for those whom are not familar with it. Commonly referred to as twist or twist rate)
Velocity | RPM 1-7.5 ROT | RPM 1-12 ROT | RPM 1-14 ROT |
4000 | 384,000 | 240,000 | 205,714 |
3900 | 374,400 | 234,000 | 200,571 |
3800 | 364,800 | 228,000 | 195,429 |
3700 | 355,200 | 222,000 | 190,286 |
3600 | 345,600 | 216,000 | 185,143 |
3500 | 336,000 | 210,000 | 180,000 |
3400 | 326,400 | 204,000 | 174,857 |
3300 | 316,800 | 198,000 | 169,714 |
3200 | 307,200 | 192,000 | 164,571 |
3100 | 297,600 | 186,000 | 159,429 |
3000 | 288,000 | 180,000 | 154,286 |
Now if one actually studies bullet flight.
Precession plays in, and well as jacket thickness related to centrifugal forces with a "cup and core" bullet design. Depending on the bullet construction and design there is a point that the factors RPM, Velocity, Centrifugal forces plays works to cause a failure. Be that by "blowing up" (either on target, or in flight) or simply by the precession takes over and causes the dispersion to increase (accuracy failure). The further the distance to the target the greater the effect of precession on bullet, this explains to a degree why a fast twist AR shoot a 55gr or less fine at 200 yards or less but beyond that it goes to crap. Thin jackets such as actual varmint bullets (usually targeted at the PD Groundhogs shooters) vs FMJ or "normal" hunting bullets, have a tendency come apart easily as described above.
I know many will ask so what's the answer? simply put it's up to the exact bullet some do well with "excessive" spin some not so much. The other factor according to Frank Green of Bartlein barrels which he points to as a theory, is the land and groove geometry. Example 5R is stated to produce less of a burr on the tail of a bullet once it leave the muzzle, while others discount this. Personally I have a tendency to agree with Mr. Green I am a fan of the 5R (5 groove radius) rifling, but it doesn't mean any other rifling geometry is wrong. If it shoots to your preference then it's fine).
Bottom line is there is a sweet spot that they like to spin at producing good terminal effects and accuracy. It's based on the materials used and design. This doesn't discount bullet alignment or even "Jump" or lack of. So there isn't a simple straight forward answer. The reamer and the barrels concentricity is just as important.
The fact that so many variable are involved is what makes the question of "why" this X bullet is not accurate or has the terminal effect one desires to answer.
Are their rules of thumbs to go by? Sure, but be prepared for exceptions.
For DRT sometimes the answer is simply slow down the velocity slightly to achieve a better result. Or switch to slightly more robust design. That can mean manufacturer or just a slightly heavy bullet (usually but not always means a slightly thicker jacket)
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17remhunter
Active member
I have very few runners but then ive turned down shots. A 30 gr bullet traveling at 3800 fps is lethal. I just hate the thought of a coyote running off wounded and speeding four or five days with a painful lingering death. Plus I pride myself in how good my pelts look. If im not almost certain that I can make a clean kill I pass. I call in enough coyotes. We all know when to pass and when we know a sure thing
17remhunter
Active member
Thanks SGT. You gave me a lot to think about!
Sgt_Mike
Well-known member
Be careful it is a rabbit hole in some respects.
Usually if one is concerned with DRT, the actual manufacturer of the bullet can advise a (RPM) which their answer will be as a velocity. But the ROT will be needed. In today's market we have wayyy superior products than in the 1970/80's era.
Looking at the .223 that you mention the Hornady 53gr V-max,
https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/22-cal-224-53-gr-v-max#!/#specs
according to their "suggested" usage it is for < 50lbs.
Many on here use it with success, I personally don't so I cant advise what to load at to get your desired outcome.
I did look at their "suggested" usage for Coyote it looks like the 50gr CX #22402, the 65gr CX #22765, both are "monolithic" meaning copper core. So no lead based, means they are longer than a cup and core. This alone helps with stability in flight the up side with this type of construction in the DRT department is deeper penetration than a Blow up on target. Which to my simple thought is run them as fast as you can accurately. Will that scene work for you don't know. It might be bad advise.
That would most likely keep you from giving up velocity (? maybe). Again not used those
But, If you do decide to go to the 6.5mm bore, maybe the Sierria 100gr #1710 Varmintking (used to be called Gameking) would work for you in the CM. again those I would send them as fast as I could accurately.
sierrabullets.com
I'm still playing with that load development in the 100gr
I did get one of my 6.5CM to shoot the 120gr Sierria #1725 SMK (Match King) although not recommended for game.
The #1720 Prohunter (6.6mm 120gr) or the #4320 6.5mm 120 TGK might fill the requirements for you as a option to the .223.
My personal load for the 120gr SMK is 44.7grs of Winchester 6.5 StaBall powder. (5 shot groups 0.325" CTC @100 yards) I've not chronograph, that load but load data from Hodgdon suggest 2900 to almost 3000 fps as a rough estimate.
Usually if one is concerned with DRT, the actual manufacturer of the bullet can advise a (RPM) which their answer will be as a velocity. But the ROT will be needed. In today's market we have wayyy superior products than in the 1970/80's era.
Looking at the .223 that you mention the Hornady 53gr V-max,
https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/22-cal-224-53-gr-v-max#!/#specs
according to their "suggested" usage it is for < 50lbs.
Many on here use it with success, I personally don't so I cant advise what to load at to get your desired outcome.
I did look at their "suggested" usage for Coyote it looks like the 50gr CX #22402, the 65gr CX #22765, both are "monolithic" meaning copper core. So no lead based, means they are longer than a cup and core. This alone helps with stability in flight the up side with this type of construction in the DRT department is deeper penetration than a Blow up on target. Which to my simple thought is run them as fast as you can accurately. Will that scene work for you don't know. It might be bad advise.
That would most likely keep you from giving up velocity (? maybe). Again not used those
But, If you do decide to go to the 6.5mm bore, maybe the Sierria 100gr #1710 Varmintking (used to be called Gameking) would work for you in the CM. again those I would send them as fast as I could accurately.
6.5MM 100 GR HP VarmintKing (SVK)
The Bulletsmiths®. Reloadable bullets for rifles and pistols designed for precision target shooting, hunting, and defense. Crafting a tradition of precision since 1947.
sierrabullets.com
I did get one of my 6.5CM to shoot the 120gr Sierria #1725 SMK (Match King) although not recommended for game.
The #1720 Prohunter (6.6mm 120gr) or the #4320 6.5mm 120 TGK might fill the requirements for you as a option to the .223.
My personal load for the 120gr SMK is 44.7grs of Winchester 6.5 StaBall powder. (5 shot groups 0.325" CTC @100 yards) I've not chronograph, that load but load data from Hodgdon suggest 2900 to almost 3000 fps as a rough estimate.
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Two big factors that are sometimes overlooked. Throat condition and pressure. Gator hide in the throat will absolutely increase the likelihood of "poofs". As that rough throat effects the integrity of the jacket. As will high pressures. Often poofs can be greatly reduced by moderately reducing the load.
- DAA
I've killed more coyotes with a .223 than any other cartridge I've shot over the years. I've gone through the saving fur stage to just get them killed and worry less about the fur to somewhere in between. I've had the best luck with 52 or 53 grain Hornady BTHP's as far as killing and saving fur are both concerned. I've been killin coyotes with bullets my grandpa has had since the 70's for the past 20 years. I've killed coyotes and bobcats and badgers with bullets so old the hollow tip was green inside.
As for readily available, pick a box up at the store and go hunting ammo it's hard to beat plain jane 55 grain softpoints in my opinion. The latest and greatest bullets are fine but don't overlook those bullets that have been dumping coyotes for decades.
Fur friendly could be the case in someone else's gun and completely destroy hides in yours. For example I had quarter sized exits using Sierra Blitzkings out of a 16 1/2" barrel, out of a 24" barrel I've blown holes the size of a baseball in coyotes with them. The Hornady 52 and 53 grain have been pretty consistent in both the fur friendly and kill 'em dead right there department. Pretty similar results with the 55 grain softpoints as well from gun to gun. You'll have an exit on broadside shots, sometimes a good sized one. But those coyotes drop where they're standing more times than not.
As for readily available, pick a box up at the store and go hunting ammo it's hard to beat plain jane 55 grain softpoints in my opinion. The latest and greatest bullets are fine but don't overlook those bullets that have been dumping coyotes for decades.
Fur friendly could be the case in someone else's gun and completely destroy hides in yours. For example I had quarter sized exits using Sierra Blitzkings out of a 16 1/2" barrel, out of a 24" barrel I've blown holes the size of a baseball in coyotes with them. The Hornady 52 and 53 grain have been pretty consistent in both the fur friendly and kill 'em dead right there department. Pretty similar results with the 55 grain softpoints as well from gun to gun. You'll have an exit on broadside shots, sometimes a good sized one. But those coyotes drop where they're standing more times than not.
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I’ve loaded 6 Creed with 58gr Vmax’s and H4895 to 3900 FPS. The rifle is a seekins ph-3 and the faster loads in the ladder shot the most accurately. But the go-to I’ve settled on with that rifle is the 90gr ELD-X. They reliably shoot sub-.5 moa at 300 yds, usually sub-.3 moa at 3150 FPS with 39.5 grains of RL-16. I also have a couple 6.5 CM’s, a R700 and a Ruger American Gen I. I don’t use the 6.5’s for coyotes, but both rifles shoot the Federal varmint load with the 95gr Vmax bullets lights-out. If you’re looking for a good off-the-shelf round for 6.5 CM and coyotes, that would be my suggestion.
Utahcaller
Active member
For Me the debate has been over for several years now. .22-250 Ackley 60 grain Bergers at 3700 fps……
spotstalkshoot
Well-known member
A good comparison 55 gr Nosler BT out of a 223 and same bullet out of a 22-250 the 400 fps difference makes all the difference on shots over 250 yards. Jump/run/tumble or drt.
