The MOST RIDUCULOUS thing I've ever read!!!

Rim, both parties are utterly corrupt. However, no party rises to the top of wickedness more than the democratic party.

These abortion worshippers, who revel in the slaughter of ten's of millions of innocent young babies, are most responsible for the moral decline of our nation.

Of the seven sin that the Lord hates, the shedding of innocent blood is the sin that the Lord detests the most.

The democratic party members will receive the more severe judgment.
 
+1

Well put Dawg. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Big biggest criticism of liberals is that they are often not interested in objective facts and reason but head for the squishy subjective.

For example, I was recently arguing about taxes with a liberal family member recently (don't we all have 1 or 2?) and her argument finally just broke down to "fairness."

Well, you can't argue past that because it is a totally subjective notion. She also invoked "the rich." What in the world does that mean? Nothing, it is also totally subjective concept.

That kind of reasoning and behind it the desire to feel good about themselves irrespective of the facts is a common denominator amongst most liberal I've met. Class envy also rears its ugly head, too. As if another's hard work and prosperity has somehow taken something from you.

Another good example is recycling. You can show a recycling worshiper facts and figures all day long about how they are wasting their time and energy sifting through their trash and they still think they are doing their bit to reduce the number of trees cut. Never mind that cutting trees is a GOOD thing, try to explain that and you short circuit their brains. But they WANT to believe and it makes them feel good, so people go around wasting their time with this and, worse, brainwashing little kids about it. It is like their religion and when you argue with them you are violating common sense twice because you are simultaneously arguing politics AND religion with a zealot!

A lot of people also don't think much about these things like we do and when they vote they just do it on emotion. I think a lot of 'casual liberals' are perfectly nice people, some are even religious and believe that using the government to "help" the poor, etc. is doing Christ's will.

Some liberals are also unquestionably patriots. How many missions did the grandaddy of modern liberalism, George McGovern, fly in WWII? I don't recall exactly, but it was a lot of them.

They problem is that in the 1960s somebody was spitting on GIs returning from Vietnam and calling them baby killers. Those weren't people who loved America. I think many of those America-hating libs are now ensconced in elite institutions such as the media and academia--in the latter case where they are practically unfirable.
 
"Some liberals are also unquestionably patriots. How many missions did the grandaddy of modern liberalism, George McGovern, fly in WWII? I don't recall exactly, but it was a lot of them."

I hear ya Java. Where would McGovern fit in with todays Dem party? I'd say he wouldn't. In fact I'd like for RR or any other Dem sympathizer on here to name ONE true patriot in the Dems current leadership. Murtha? Kerry? Yeah right. Both served in the military, but real patriots? Hardly. Even McCain, who is a genuine war hero, and also a liberal in many aspects, calls himself a Republican. Obama's been talking tough lately though. LOL
 
Arguing with a liberal is like "wrassling" with a pig. You get muddy and the pig has all the fun.

Both parties have forsaken the citizens, but the Demoncraps are still the tax luvin, gun hating vermin they have always been.
 
Quote:
"Some liberals are also unquestionably patriots. How many missions did the grandaddy of modern liberalism, George McGovern, fly in WWII? I don't recall exactly, but it was a lot of them."

I hear ya Java. Where would McGovern fit in with todays Dem party? I'd say he wouldn't. In fact I'd like for RR or any other Dem sympathizer on here to name ONE true patriot in the Dems current leadership. Murtha? Kerry? Yeah right. Both served in the military, but real patriots? Hardly. Even McCain, who is a genuine war hero, and also a liberal in many aspects, calls himself a Republican. Obama's been talking tough lately though. LOL



Ya know, Dawg, I try to give people the benefit of the doubt and look for the best, but to honestly answer your question, no, I cannot think of a single example of a patriot in the current Dem leadership. Nope.

A one time I would have quickly responded Joe Leiberman, but they drove him out of their party to become an independent and guys like Dodd who served with him for 20+ years then stabbed his friend in the back like a Judas.

Again, your key word was 'party leadership.' I believe there are a couple of Jr Dem Congressmen who are Iraq vets--and my hat is off to them--but they are a long, long way outside of the 'leadership' circle.
 
"Again, your key word was 'party leadership.' I believe there are a couple of Jr Dem Congressmen who are Iraq vets--and my hat is off to them--but they are a long, long way outside of the 'leadership' circle."

Yeah there are a few of those and they certainly deserve our praise. Once their idealistic legs are cut out from under them by Pelosi, Emmanuel, Hoyer and Co. you can bet they will be "Lieberized" if they don't fall in line on every vote. One would only expect cannibalism from the Abortion Party.
 
Quote:
Zell Miller. But the dems don't have room for him any more, either.



I think we can all agree that "zig zag Zell," as his own party disparaged him, was the last of the old Southern Coalition Democrats, perhaps the last conservative Democrat holdout.

Those guys are now known as Republicans thanks to Reagan!

I actually saw Miller go off on Chris Matthews of MSNBC because Mathews had bullied Michelle Malkin on his stupid show the previous night. Zell was yelling that he wished we still had dueling and would want to go out there with Matthews, etc....lol. it was GREAT! I suspect Matthews wet his pants a little just then.
 
Got me there Stu. Zell is old school. No limp wrist there. He rips his own party more than he does the opposition. Just like McCain! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Found in a government school history book near you.

foundingliberal.jpg
 
ROTFL!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I think Rush was talking about that cartoon a little while ago.
 
Quote:
CISNEROS:

38) Linda Jones: Henry Cisneros mistress; conspiracy, bank fraud, money laundering, and obstruction of justice federal felony guilty pleas; sentenced to three and one-half years in prison (Associated Press: "Cisneros Ex-Mistress Sentenced" March 25, 1998)
Pardon Granted January 2001 by Bill Clinton last hours as President

39) Patsy Jo Wooten: Linda Jones sister; one conspiracy guilty plea (Associated Press: "Cisneros Ex-Mistress Sentenced" March 25, 1998)

40) Allen Wooten: Linda Jones brother-in-law; one conspiracy guilty plea (Associated Press: "Cisneros Ex-Mistress Sentenced" March 25, 1998)




You include these people as examples of how corrupt Bill Clinton is but you don’t mention Jack Abramoff on the George Bush side?
 
I suspect the avowedly liberal CREW organization didn't include Abramoff (I would have put him at the top) because he was an equal opportunity criminal, giving money to both sides including Sen. Harry Reid, Sen. Tom Harkin, Sen. Byron Dorgan.

While Abramoff was widely characterized in the media as a Republican lobbyist, he gave money to whoever he thought could help his many clients, regardless of party. Since 2001 that was more to Republicans than Dems since the Republicans were in power, but he also gave lots of money to Dems and even to influential politicians and such overseas.

Linda Jones (Medlar), Patsy Jo Wooten, and Allen Wooten were all directly a part of the Henry Cisneros ( Clinton Secretary of Housing and Urban Development) conspiracy/scandal, and were co-conspirators with him. The real scandal there (I thought) was that Cisneros was allowed to plead guilty to a misdemeanor (why his name isn't there too) and served zero time, while Jones/Medlar was given 2 years for doing what Cisneros had told her to do.
 
Quote:
I suspect the avowedly liberal CREW organization didn't include Abramoff (I would have put him at the top) because he was an equal opportunity criminal, giving money to both sides including Sen. Harry Reid, Sen. Tom Harkin, Sen. Byron Dorgan.

While Abramoff was widely characterized in the media as a Republican lobbyist, he gave money to whoever he thought could help his many clients, regardless of party. Since 2001 that was more to Republicans than Dems since the Republicans were in power, but he also gave lots of money to Dems and even to influential politicians and such overseas.


It’s true that Abramoff spread his money around, like any lobbyist would. I wouldn’t call it equal opportunity, more like he was throwing a percentage to the other side to hedge his bets. It was Abramoff’s case that lead to deputy secretary of the interior Steven Griles and David Safavian, chief of staff of the General Services Administration, being convicted of obstruction of justice. There’s plenty more I can add that have been convicted or plead guilty. My point is that the GOP is in deep weeds and so many are content to try to pass the blame to the left or spin the facts to make themselves feel better. This is the same stuff that was so devastating in ’06. If the GOP can’t regain the trust of the voters before ’08 they are going to be steam rolled. The fact that the Dems have so little to offer might help in the race for the White House but the margin could very well increase in both houses. The clock is ticking; the time for denial is past. If the GOP doesn’t move to clean up their act ’08 will be far worse than ’06.
 
Quote:
My point is that the GOP is in deep weeds and so many are content to try to pass the blame to the left or spin the facts to make themselves feel better.



Well, no, your point was a comparison of Clinton and Bush with a strong insinuation that Bush would obstruct justice and cover things up. That's a comparison that is flatly ridiculous whether comparing the men themselves OR the executive branch employees under either's administration.

Quote:
"Bill Clinton was the most investigated president in history and yet there were no convictions."

"If you want to compare to GWB we should have a complete bi-partisan investigation of him first, preferable after he is out of office and is less able to obstruct justice. That is if anyone in his administration can remember anything."



Any lobbyist pays whoever can help their clients, in the Abramoff scandal many of them illegally. In the overwhelming number of cases that means the party in power gets the money (legal and illegal), which for 6 years was the GOP. Abramoff was a lobbyist for 5 of those years, so he did indeed pay much more to GOP politicians than to Dems, but it was just a little more than "a hedge" ($1,541,673 to Dems, 2,886,088 to Republicans). Would that ratio have flipped with the new DNC congress? We'll (fortunately) never know since he was caught and put away.

I agree that corruption was a problem in the GOP while they were in power, and I don't defend any of the bums. I applaud it when they are caught and thrown out and would like to see them all in jail. I don't however think most conservatives are "content to try to pass the blame to the left or spin the facts". In fact many of those same "extreme right wing nut-job organizations" like the Brookings Institution, and Judicial Watch, who were slammed repeatedly for their Clinton era investigations of Dems, are leading the FOIA investigations into GOP malfeasance now (and I applaud them for it). I also agree that it is likely to be a (big) problem for the GOP in '08. Too bad. Should have paid more attention and either kept it from happening or cleaned house sooner.

About the closest I'd come to "blaming the left" is to point out that when a GOP politician is exposed as corrupt, the GOP (generally) drops them like a hot potato. Contrast that with the DNC which commonly defends the crooks and claims they are being persecuted by the right.

It does bother me when lefties try to characterize the Bush administration as "the most corrupt in history", especially when they try to rewrite history in the same breath and pretend Clinton's problems were all an invention of "The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy".

The Bush administration doesn't compare to Clinton's in amount or degree of corruption, or indeed to a number of others in history (want a corrupt Republican administration? Look at U.S. Grant).

Clinton's administration was beyond doubt the worst in our history, bar none.

Besides the stuff previously cited, and by far the worst (in my mind), Clinton/Gore took money from the Red Chinese Army, not just the Army, but Red Army Military Intelligence (that would be spies for you liberals). Gore (whose campaign some of the money was funneled through) was given a party in the Rose Garden when it was found out. He did give the money back after he was caught (what was provable) so the Dems said he was innocent, and he actually had the Democrat rank and file believing he was not only innocent, but was a campaign finance reformer. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Of course there was no proof that either the money directly from the Red Army or the millions (that we know about) from James Riady (who is a "business partner" with the Red Army) had anything at all to do with the (Presidential waivered) sale of National Lab mainframes to China that still had nuclear weapon designs "accidentally" left on the hard drives. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

There was never "absolute proof" that the illegal money had anything to do with the presidential directive making the sale of ballistic missile guidance system designs to the Red Army legal, or the out-of-the-blue (zero public comment or advance notice) "taking" of 1.7 million acres of land in southwest Utah as the Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument, making the low sulphur coal there off-limits to mining. A presidential decree that just by pure coincidence happened to let the Lippo Group (owned by Riady and the Red Army) corner the world market for that quality of coal (which was mandated for use in coal fired electrical generation plants by Clinton environmental regs). /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

There was no proof that the illegal campaign money from the Red Army had anything to do with Clinton's plan to lease Long Beach Navy Base to the Red Army either (though even the Dems balked at that one). /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angry-smiley-055.gif

Nope no proof at all of any connections, and no reason for Janet Reno to authorize an independent council to look for proof either, even when asked to do so by the director of the FBI, her own Justice Department council, and the Senate. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif

I HAVE wondered from time to time what happened to the investigation into how the Red Chinese got ALL (literally 100%) of our nuclear secrets (seperate from the computers), not just weapons designs but the software to do "virtual" weapons testing so designs can be tested without actually having to be built. I mean when they finally figured out that the Taiwanese Chinese-American (Wen Ho Lee) they charged, couldn't have been the spy because he didn't even have access to the info, why did the investigation just stop? Wasn't Somebody the spy.

No, I wouldn't want to try to make connections between the repeated raping of the U.S. by Red Chinese Military Intelligence during the Clinton Administration (what we know of) and the millions of dollars (that we know of) given to Clinton/Gore by them directly and through their partners. Why that would be just vast right wing conspiracy nuts on the loose again. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Oh, but wait, the Bush administration is the worst, most corrupt administration in history. They awarded no-bid contracts to Halliburton when the french company Schlumberger could have done the job too (the only other company in the world that could...literally) and Cheney was the CEO of Halliburton (before he became VP and divested his portfolio of every share of their stock). /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

NO, NO, that wasn't it, Bush (and the Brit, French, Russian, etc intelligence services, as well as the CIA) lied and people died. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif

NO WAIT!! Bush has been incompetent in handling N. Korea and Iran who have nuclear weapons programs developed on Bush's watch (with Chinese supplied technology...hmmm /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif).

OH My God, I almost forgot the big one!!! Bush refused to sign or follow the Kyoto protocol just because it would hurt (devastate) the U.S economy. Why, Gore has shown repeatedly that the U.S. is going to ruin the world with our pollution. Gore has proven that no matter what the cost we need to act NOW. I do wonder sometimes why he never even mentions that the worst polluting country in the world is exempt from Kyoto. I'm sure the fact that that country is China is purely coincidental. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Yeah, lets compare Clinton to Bush. I don't think Bush has been the best president (by a long shot), but anybody wins when compared to Clinton.
 
Well Rimmy, there is a just a little bit of it that can be documented. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif None of the quotes I've provided are anywhere close to complete, just enough to give a sense of what the links cover. Follow the links for the complete story.




untitled-1.jpg

Source Kind of looks puny compared to the 13 million (that they could find) in Chinese Red Army money given to Clinton/Gore in '96, doesn't it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif



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The China Connection

Liu
Quote:
Liu Chaoying, the daughter of a powerful Chinese military official, is also the vice president for international trade of Casil, a Hong Kong company that is controlled by the state-owned China Aerospace Corp.

Liu became part of the ongoing campaign finance investigations after Johnny Chung, who recently reached a plea bargain agreement with the Justice Department, told investigators that he received $300,000 from Liu, at least $35,000 of which he turned around and contributed to U.S. political campaigns.



Senate Report Note the disclaimer that the report does not include the classified portions etc. Also note that there was evidence that the Chinese gave money to Clinton in the '92 election, but Janet Reno stonewalled any investigation until after the statute of limitations had run out.

In addition, the $13 million they were able to trace is likely just the tip of the iceberg as they point out in the Senate report.

Quote:
"From its earliest stages, the Committee’s investigation uncovered instances of political
contributions made with foreign money. Either contributing or soliciting this money have been individuals with business or political ties to the PRC, who have escorted PRC officials and businessmen to meetings with President Clinton and Vice President Gore...

Although hampered by time constraints and spotty cooperation from some federal agencies, the Committee has gathered significant information. The Committee determined...that the PRC government fashioned a plan before the 1996 elections and that its goal was to influence our political process, ostensibly through stepped-up lobbying efforts and also funding from Beijing. Over time, the plan evolved and the PRC engaged in much more than simply “lobbying.” Indeed, discussions took place and actions were taken that suggest more than the original plan was being executed, and that a variety of PRC entities were acting to influence U.S. elections...

But the Committee has learned that Beijing expected more than simply increased lobbying from its diplomatic posts in the U.S. Indeed, as the Committee examined the issue in greater detail, it found a broad array of Chinese efforts designed to influence U.S. policies and elections through, among other means, financing election campaigns.

James and Mochtar Riady. The Committee has learned from recently-acquired information that James and Mochtar Riady have had a long-term relationship with a Chinese intelligence agency...

...the Committee understands that the Chinese intelligence agency seeks to locate and develop relationships with information collectors, particularly persons with close connections to the U.S. government.

The Riadys are central figures in the campaign finance scandal for several reasons. First, they have close ties with President Clinton. James and Mochtar Riady have known President Clinton since the mid-1980s The Riadys have visited Clinton in the White House on several occasions. Second, the Riadys were heavy contributors to the DNC and other Democratic causes. They made and solicited significant contributions directly in connection with the 1992 elections;




More
Quote:
Mr. Huang met with the President and others at the White House 10 times between June 21 and June 27, 1994, and, right after that, Mr. Webb Hubbell, who was about to be indicted by a Federal grand jury, received $100,000 from the Lippo Group.

Shortly after this money was given to Mr. Hubbell, Mr. Huang got a job at the Commerce Department as Assistant Secretary. Huang's job at the Commerce Department was a very influential position because he had a hand in determining technology transfers that went to Communist China and exclusive trade deals with Indonesia's corrupt dictatorship. It is known that Huang met 37 times with the CIA during his tenure at the Commerce Department.

John Huang pleaded guilty in 1999 to Federal charges of making illegal political contributions to the Clinton/Gore campaign. Huang also cited his Fifth Amendment rights over 2,000 times when asked if he was acting as an agent for the Chinese Army.





Schwartz/Missle guidance tech
Quote:
At issue: Whether Loral and Hughes Electronics Corp. helped improve China's missile guidance systems by analyzing a failed 1996 satellite launch in China; and whether the White House's decision this year to grant Loral a waiver for another satellite launch in China was granted on account of Shwartz's donations.



Loral/Schwartz/Missle tech
Quote:
Last February, Clinton approved the company's request to launch a commercial telecommunications satellite aboard a Chinese rocket, choosing to side with the State Department's assessment of the launch as "in the national interest" rather than with Justice Department concerns that approval would interfere with an ongoing criminal investigation. Justice was – and still is – looking into whether Loral and another company provided unauthorized assistance to China's ballistic missile program after an unsuccessful previous launch.





Supercomputers
Quote:
The Clinton administration decided to allow the export of high-performance computers with processing speeds between 12,500 and 28,000 MTOPS (millions of operations per second), claiming the new rules would "promote national security" while easing "the unnecessary burdens on both government and industry." But according to recent studies sponsored by the U.S. Commerce and Defense Departments, computers operating at these speeds will give the biggest boost to foreign nuclear and missile makers






Computers
Quote:
Supercomputers (some possibly diverted to military use)
--Two supercomputers to the China Academy of Sciences (CAS) from Silicon Graphics, Inc. (1996)
--One supercomputer to the the Computer Institute of the University of Science and Technology for National Defense in Changsha, Hunan, Province, from Sun Microsystems (1996)
--46 supercomputers total since early 1996





Congressional Research Service ˜ The Library of Congress-Red China Nuclear espionage

Note that it took almost 2 years after the espionage became public for the Clinton administration to do anything about security at the labs, even to re-institute security checks for foreign scientists. Maybe the Chinese hadn't gotten everything they wanted yet?? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

Quote:
This CRS Report discusses China’s suspected acquisition of U.S. nuclear
weapon secrets, including that on the W88, the newest U.S. nuclear warhead. This
serious controversy became public in early 1999 and raised policy issues about
whether U.S. security was further threatened by China’s suspected use of U.S.
nuclear weapon secrets in its development of nuclear forces, as well as whether the
Administration’s response to the security problems was effective or mishandled and
whether it fairly used or abused its investigative and prosecuting authority. The
Clinton Administration acknowledged that improved security was needed at the
weapons labs but said that it took actions in response to indications in 1995 that
China may have obtained U.S. nuclear weapon secrets. Critics in Congress and
elsewhere argued that the Administration was slow to respond to security concerns,
mishandled the too narrow investigation, downplayed information potentially
unfavorable to China and the labs, and failed to notify Congress fully.
On April 7, 1999, President Clinton gave his assurance that partly “because of
our engagement, China has, at best, only marginally increased its deployed nuclear
threat in the last 15 years” and that the strategic balance with China “remains
overwhelmingly in our favor.” On April 21, 1999, Director of Central Intelligence
(DCI) George Tenet, reported the Intelligence Community’s damage assessment. It
confirmed that “China obtained by espionage classified U.S. nuclear weapons
information that probably accelerated its program to develop future nuclear
weapons.” It also revealed that China obtained information on “several” U.S. nuclear
reentry vehicles, including the Trident II submarine-launched missile that delivers the
W88 nuclear warhead as well as “a variety of” design concepts and weaponization
features, including those of the neutron bomb.
On May 25, 1999, the House’s Cox Committee reported that China stole
classified information on the W88 and six other U.S. nuclear warheads. On June 15,
1999, the President’s Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board (PFIAB) called the
Department of Energy a “dysfunctional bureaucracy” and urged the creation of a
semi-autonomous or independent agency to oversee nuclear weapons. In September
1999, Congress passed the FY2000 National Defense Authorization Act to create a
National Nuclear Security Administration (NNSA) within DOE on March 1, 2000.






China/Iran
Quote:
China’s security relationship with Iran is broad. Despite over a decade of protests from Washington, China continues to export nuclear technology, chemical weapons precursors, and guided missiles to Iran.






Chni/N.Korea
Quote:
North Korea was not left all alone in its effort to obtain nuclear weapons. North Korea relied heavily on China, its closest ally, to assist in its all-out effort to obtain the atomic bomb.






U.S. Pays for Clinton-Riady-China Connection
Quote:
Bill Clinton shares a close financial relationship with Moctar Riady, the Indonesian billionaire owner of Lippo Group. According to testimony before Sen. Fred Thompson, the Lippo Group is in fact a joint venture of China Resources, a trading and holding company "wholly owned" by the Chinese communist government and used as a front for espionage operations.





Adaro is a Lippo group company, you know the conglomerate that's mostly owned by Riady and the Red Army.
Quote:
envirocoal™ is mined by P.T. Adaro Indonesia and represented in the western hemisphere by Adaro Envirocoal Americas.






More
Quote:
The Monument was declared in September, 1996 at the height of the 1996 presidential election campaign by President Bill Clinton, and was controversial from the moment of creation. The declaration ceremony was held at Grand Canyon National Park in Arizona, and not in the state of Utah. The Utah congressional delegation and state governor were notified only 24 hours in advance...

Many people in Utah were very upset when Bill Clinton declared the Grand Staircase-Escalante area as a National Monument...Monument designation also nixed the Andalex Coal Mine...




I could go on, but why?

I can already hear you parrotting the Dem mantra, "There's no absolute proof", and you/they are right, there isn't. There is considerably more evidence than it's taken to send people to the electric chair on though.

I don't think Clinton was a Chinese spy, But I think he would legally qualify as a Chinese "agent of influence". There is every indication that the Chinese Red Army heavily influenced (and maybe bought) both the '92 and '96 elections with the eager cooperation of the President and Vice President of the United States.

Want a good comparison of the GOP and the DNC in general?

There were a number of people who were giving Chinese Red Army money that were convicted, but not one of the people who took the Chinese money, not even the campaign workers who actually recieved it, got in any trouble. That was the "work" of the Clinton Democrat Justice Dept.

Contrast that with the convictions in the much smaller Abramoff scandal. That's the Bush Republican Justice Dept.

Yeah, let's compare them. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
"Janet Reno stonewalled any investigation until after the statute of limitations had run out."

Wouldn't that be obstruction of justice?I thought only the Bush DOJ was capable of that. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
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