The Spirit of the .204

braddsn

braddsn

New member
Hey folks! Ok hopefully I won't get 'flamed' too much over this, but I am only giving my experience, and am willing to argue my point for any non-believers.. :) I have owned .223's most of my adult life, and shot them even more extensively in the military. So I am very familiar with exactly what the .223 will do, both factory ammo and reloads. I currently own a .204 (nothing super fancy), it is a Remington 700 in a Hogue stock, some trigger work, and shooting reloads. I mainly shoot coyotes. I would wager that my .204 has waaaaaayyyy more killing power out to 300 yds than a .223, shoots waaaaaaay flatter than the .223, has much less recoil/muzzle flip (nearly none), and is much more accurate than any .223 that I have owned (custom included). Now let me say this.. I have seen a lot of folks with .204s switch to larger bullets for coyotes. I have always felt that this is getting away from the whole purpose or "spirit" of the .204. Of course this is just opinion, but the point of the .204 is the blistering high speed and therefore flat trajectory, and yet still nearly no recoil, etc. If you are bumping up to heavier bullets and slowing velocity, then why not just move to the 22-250 or 22 swift. See what I mean? I found that by bumping the velocity up to 4150 (velocity KILLS!), I was able to achieve the killing power needed with the 32gr Sierra to drop coyotes stone dead out to 300, every time (with a well placed shot of course). So, the reason I am posting this is because, in my OPINION, the .204 properly loaded is far superior to any .223 for this purpose. I see so many ppl going on about the .223 for varmint hunting, and I just hate to see so many people going the .223 route and missing out on the fun that the .204 can be! Now flame away!! haha.. I will try to argue my point the best I can... :)
 
Oh and by the way, for the folks possibly interested in the .204, you pretty much need to hand load to get the results I am speaking of. The extra 300fps is what is really doing the killing compared to factory ammo.. and from my experience, factory ammo is not super accurate. There is always a wide jump from the bullet to the lands in the .204's, so reloading and seating the bullet out further is certainly key.
 
Sure the 204 shoots flatter, but thats about it...

I'd rather have a fast twist 223, shoot 40g vmax up to 75g amax, waaaaaayyyyyy more versatile, and waaaayyyyy better for shots beyond 300 yards.

Why not just buy a 250 or Swift, shoot 40g bullets at 4100-4400fps and have the same trajectory with more power? Sure little more recoil but an extra couple pounds is really nothing...

The 204 has never tickled my fancy, neither has the 223 for that matter...Neither of them do anything super special so I can do without both of em, wouldn't hurt my feelings.

I'll take a little bigger bullet at a little slower MV anyday as well. The lighter/faster pills are ok out to 300 as you have experienced, but after that, the heavier bullets will always outrun the little ones, velocity only kills and gets you so far...
 
I have both the 223 and the 204 and hands down between the two I like the .204 But my next rife will be a Swift or a 22-250AI. I want the speed but a little more bullet to go with the speed. But I do love shooting the .204 RP
 
i would love to own a .204 cal but probably won't untill someone comes up with a mid 30's bullet that is tough enough every time for coyotes. i;ve called sierra about making a gameking but so far have fallen on deff ears. i hope everyone wanting the same thing would call them and voice your concerns. it can be done
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I think most people go with a .223 for some of the reasons stated above, it doesnt really dominate in one area but is generally good in all of them. Factor that with an endless supply of brass/powder/bullets and factory offerings and you have a decided winner. I personally prefer the .204 over the .223 as well but I can see why some people, especially who dont resload would go with a .223.
 
Since this is a "Personal Opinion" thread, I guess I'll throw out mine...

It seems that the .204, like many other popular cartridges, was developed for a purpose and has had people attempt to vary the use to other things, a little outside of the original envelope...

I believe the .204 was originally designed to be used for longer than average range "Varmint" shooting where the shooter gets a kick out of seeing the small, pesky, target explode more often than with some other cartridges, but as an effective killing machine, some have tried to direct it's use to the "Predator" side of hunting...

There seems to always be the concern about "Fur Friendly" rounds, and it seems that if saving fur is your primary reasoning for hunting, then trapping is a much better way to go...

The .223, with it's wide variety of loads, is an excellent short to medium range method of hunting predators, as well as varmints, and has also been adapted for use in killing humans at moderate ranges...

The 22-250 provides excellent distance for predators that are past the normal .223 intended ranges on a regular basis..

Any of the above calibers and cartridges can be applied to 'cross killing' purposes, but the effectiveness may be less than for what the shooter was hoping...

Just as I wouldn't attempt to apply any of them to general hunting, they can be used effectively for the purpose, but with the realization that the chance of one shot success will probably diminish on a relative basis..That's the reason for the larger calibers...

I can shoot Predators and Varmints with my .44 magnum carbine, but I'm limiting my success drastically as to range and accuracy for 'one shot kills'..when compared to using a cartridge more suitably designed...
 
Originally Posted By: OldTurtleSince this is a "Personal Opinion" thread, I guess I'll throw out mine...

It seems that the .204, like many other popular cartridges, was developed for a purpose and has had people attempt to vary the use to other things, a little outside of the original envelope...

I believe the .204 was originally designed to be used for longer than average range "Varmint" shooting where the shooter gets a kick out of seeing the small, pesky, target explode more often than with some other cartridges, but as an effective killing machine, some have tried to direct it's use to the "Predator" side of hunting...

There seems to always be the concern about "Fur Friendly" rounds, and it seems that if saving fur is your primary reasoning for hunting, then trapping is a much better way to go...

The .223, with it's wide variety of loads, is an excellent short to medium range method of hunting predators, as well as varmints, and has also been adapted for use in killing humans at moderate ranges...

The 22-250 provides excellent distance for predators that are past the normal .223 intended ranges on a regular basis..

Any of the above calibers and cartridges can be applied to 'cross killing' purposes, but the effectiveness may be less than for what the shooter was hoping...

Just as I wouldn't attempt to apply any of them to general hunting, they can be used effectively for the purpose, but with the realization that the chance of one shot success will probably diminish on a relative basis..That's the reason for the larger calibers...

I can shoot Predators and Varmints with my .44 magnum carbine, but I'm limiting my success drastically as to range and accuracy for 'one shot kills'..when compared to using a cartridge more suitably designed...



Well put.
 
Using the OPs input and opinion if we start at a level akin to throwing rocks...we get progressively "superior" thru the whole spectrum of chamberings. I have both and I have some chamberings a bit smaller and several bigger. Since I consider them all fun I never thought about them as superior.
 
Well put Turtle. I also own them both but now own 3 .204's . There is a reason. My intended use is P-dogs and the .204 is my go to caliber. And yes they will kill out at the farther distances. Just my personal opinion.
 
Originally Posted By: kyotekiller25

Why not just buy a 250 or Swift, shoot 40g bullets at 4100-4400fps and have the same trajectory with more power?

That's not exactly true. Run a ballistics program comparing that 40grainer (or any bullet weight for that matter) and you'll see that the 204 out preforms it. I'm not ripping on the .224 calibers, or saying that the 204's some mystical killing machine (because it isn't). Just pointing out that it has an awful lot going for it ballistically at distance.

To the OP, I think you're not giving near enough credit to the 223. It really is an all around Work Horse, and can be just as accurate as any with the right stuff. As a matter of fact, I sold a 223 to Old Turtle that I'd put up against your 204 out to 300. Only difference would be that the 223 would need a few more elevation clicks.
I do hope you're right about the 204's "Spirit" though because I just bought my first 204 last week. Yea I know, I'm late to the party as usual but I just wanted to see what all the fuss was about. I found one of the older CZ Varmints with the 25.5" barrels NIB for 525.00. Haven't shot it yet, but I'm hoping to whack a few Rock Chucks with her next spring.

As far as the "Fur Friendly" thing goes,,, I personally like the 17Rem, but that's just me. I've also seen pix of Fox with huge holes from a raking shot with a 22Mag, and heard stories of guys using FMJ's in a 7Mag for Coyotes, but the truth is, the only sure fire way to save fur are traps and/or snares like Turtle said.
Oh BTW,,,, I don't Skin Rock Chucks, so I'll be using the 39BK due to their high BC.
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Edit; borkon, you might try the 35gr Bergers. A lot of the "Fur Friendly" crowd seem to like it.





 
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Originally Posted By: OldTurtleif saving fur is your primary reasoning for hunting, then trapping is a much better way to go...



OooooK.....
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Are you sure about the 40 gr 204 out performing the 22-250? I Havnt read this data and has not been my experience at all

At 400 yards my 204 won't knock over a turkey silloete but my 250 will at 600 no prob
The 204 just leaves a dusty spot were it hits does not even remove the paint
I would like to see the data on the 204 and the 250 you are referring to
 
I like the 204. If some one would come up with a 35 or 39 grn bullet that was not a polymer tip that explodes on impact we would have a winner. The major problem I have found on getting into the bigger animals-mainly coyote-is lack of penetration. A good jacketed core or SP bullet would solve that.
 
Originally Posted By: medic889I like the 204. If some one would come up with a 35 or 39 grn bullet that was not a polymer tip that explodes on impact we would have a winner. The major problem I have found on getting into the bigger animals-mainly coyote-is lack of penetration. A good jacketed core or SP bullet would solve that.

I agree 100%
 
I think all posts were very well put! And I especially think Turtle and Repete hit the nail on the head. Turtle, I believe that you are 100% right in that, when you start using a cartridge outside of it's intended purpose, you should start expecting a decrease in performance. And RePete, I can see you have done your ballistics homework!! haha... I have read and read and re-read so many ballistics charts that I had a headache, trying to find a round that performed like the .204. Personally, for it's intended purpose, nothing performs like it! Now keep in mind everyone, I was not so much comparing the .204 to the other cartridges, as I was to the .223 specifically. Also keep in mind, I found my personal niche with this rifle NOT by loading a heavier bullet, but by cranking the velocity up on the 32 grainer. Believe me, 300fps makes a huge difference when the round hits a coyote, I have seen it firsthand! But then again, to achieve this you must hand load. Now I love the .223 don't get me wrong, and it is a great all-arounder. But my purpose for starting this thread was to say that in my 'opinion' , the .204 does EVERYTHING better than the .223. Yes, even long range. Now most of my experience with this information has been actually out shooting, but I also believe that if you dig into the ballistics charts and use some different velocity configurations, you will also find that even on paper it does everything better. And on top of doing it better, you have less recoil and muzzle jump. And another great thing about the .204... 4,150 fps is screaming fast, and for that cartridge, that is just idling... whereas the .223 and the 22-250 have to push the envelope to perform at their rated speeds, which ultimately leads to shorter barrel life, more stress on brass, etc. (Can you tell I am a .204 fan?? haha). Sorry if I come across as biased, because I kinda am..
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By the way because of the military I have shot 1,000 times more .223 rounds than the .204, and have enjoyed every shot. The .223 is no doubt a great round.
 
medic and EDP, I know what you are saying about the 35 or 39 grainer for the .204, but my only issue with that is that you are getting away from the initial intended design of the .204. If you are going to load 39 grainers, you are losing the velocity that makes the .204 so awesome. I believe that in the 3,600-3900fps range, the .204 is not a .204 anymore. The first time I shot a melon with my .204 (velocity circa 4,100 fps) I fell in love! I realize that shooting rifles is not all about velocity, especially out at 1,000 yards.. but shooting the .204 is ALL about velocity. And even when shooting the 32 grainer, at 4,150-4,200 fps, you might be very surprised at what it does to a coyote at 300yds. It is magical! =)
 
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I would like to know the velocity of your 32 grain bullet at 100, 200 and 300 yards vs a say 45 gr or a 50 gr bullet from the 250 in my opinion the performance is better and at 2 and 3 hundred yards you have a lot better chance recovering an animal with a marginal shot with the 250 i tried every way possible to make my 204 work and yes i killed yotes and bobcats with it but had a few runners to, Would they have ran with a 250? dont know but i am pretty sure there are a couple that would not have ran. i like the 204 and when i have time i may play with it some more but have just lost my faith in it for now. i welcome any help to get my faith back in the 204
 
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