The Ultimate Predator Rifle

Originally Posted By: RePete
Well,,, since you claim the 223 does a better job on Fox I'll issue you the same challenge. Put up or,,,,,,

I already did. http://www.predatormastersforums.com/for...496#Post2756496

Originally Posted By: RePeteFunny how the 17Rem was the best caliber known to man a couple years ago when you were bragging about yours to any and every one that would listen, but now that you've "evolved" it's junk.I never claimed it was the best anything. Nor did I ever say it was "junk" or anything close to that. In fact, I clearly spelled out my frustrations that it is too much for foxes with the 25gr HP and 20gr Vmax. For example here:
http://www.predatormastersforums.com/for...184#Post2648184

And here: http://www.predatormastersforums.com/for...941#Post2687941

"17 Rem is great for foxes" is just internet BS based on my experience and the experience of several others here who have actually used it on fox and seen consistent fur damage.

So if it IS great for foxes, let's see some data. All I can find is a bunch of folks copycat'ing what they read on the internet about how the 17 Rem is the ultimate fur gun.
 
Thanks for the warm welcome fellas! .... Or not.

I'll put in .02, I had a calling partner once that shot a 17 Rem and V-Max bullets. I vividly remember they popped foxes wide open and made big splashes on coyotes more often than not.

I also remember that I loaded him some 25 gr berger target bullets and the damage greatly subsided. Follow-up shots were sometimes necessary, but in all honesty unless in competition I generally don't take the time to retrieve a coyote whether he's a spinner or DRT. Mission is already accomplished. As for the foxes, most of them were ok, with exit holes too small to notice on the wall and too big not to sew up if for sale.

Pretty cool gun really, and the only 17 commercial cartridge I've never personally owned, but from the evidence I gathered at arms length, ultimate it is not.
 
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I think .223 is good for an average joe like me. I like a 1-4x scope or 2-7. Any light weight accurate rifle that shoots moa or better is suitable. I like the tikka for my budget, would have a sako if I had more money. I don't delude myself into thinking that I have the skill to kill a coyote at 500 yards, or that you will see one approaching that far out. Even in wide open desert they use the contour of the land to slink their way in and pop up right in front of you most the time.
 
Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOGI challenge all who voted for 17 Remington to post photos of fox kills and tell us personal accounts of how it works for fox. I'll wait...

Can't help ya Dirty... I see about 1 fox every 2 years calling and I don't shoot them. I can't imagine it would be anything horrible though.
 
Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOG All I can find is a bunch of folks copycat'ing what they read on the internet about how the 17 Rem is the ultimate fur gun.

Stop hanging out with newbies and take that challenge over to Saubier. You'll find plenty of guys that have shot Fox for years with good results including the old timers from OZ that shot em by the hundreds back in the Fox Fur boom in the 70's.

As for me,,, I don't have Fox here and have never claimed to but I'm smart enough to know that a thin skinned, 5# animal won't take allot of lead. Hence my opinion that the best round for Fox is a trap but if you have to use a rifle, the smaller the better.
I have however been killing predators (and harvesting the fur) with a 17Rem as long as you've been alive and have no intentions of changing that regardless of your scientific test on three Greys.

BTW,,,, have you ever actually skinned a predator? Just curious because all I saw in your links was one hole in the throat (that I could have sewed up) shot with a VMax.
I'm not sure a throat shot is much of a test anyway. Especially considering you used a bullet designed to come apart.

 
Only live fox pics here, but i have trapped and shot them. Red and silvers brought good money. My weapon choice was 20 ga #4s.
Once with 410.
 

Well, I haven't posted anything yet and have stayed out of the debate, but for whatever it's worth I'll add my experiences with the 17 Remington on fur. It goes like this.

3 coyotes at roughly 60 yards, broadside, DRT with 25 gr. Hornady HPs. No exits.

A few fox, maybe 6 or 8 or so, can't remember exactly. Mixed results at distances from about 50 to 125 yards.

A few nights ago I downed two grays, both with the now-discontinued Berger Target Match 25 gr. One fox looked like it died of a heart attack. Not one speck of blood, none. No exit, no blood in it's mouth and no blood at bullet entry. It was the classic example we all want to see. But, my enthusiasm was dashed on the second fox as it was ripped pretty bad from the same bullet/load. I think the shot placement had something to do with it since the bullet hit high in it's back, causing a nasty wound, the worst I have seen from any fox I have taken with the 17 Remington.

All other fox I have taken with Hornady 25 gr. HPs at an average of 3921 fps. Results are mixed. All shots exited, but some were worse than others. Most could be sewn up easily enough and others were not as good.

I'm still looking for a good fox load in the 17 Remington since I haven't found it yet, but I have only tried two bullets and both were 25 gr. Maybe I need to back off on velocity a bit, or maybe I need a lighter bullet and push it fast. Just not sure at the moment. I haven't shot any fox with a 223, but I have taken several with the 6x45 and I can say that cartridge is way too much for fox.
















This one had a rather large hole but could still be sewn up. The blood splatter makes it look worse than it is.






 
David, I've wrecked more Red Fox than I had good ones with a 17 Rem.
Fox are so thin skinned and small framed, they don't take a bullet well.

Good post.
 

Tim, I agree. My experience has been that the 17 Rem and the bullets I have used are just too much for fox in general. My experience with the Berger 25 Target Match is limited to those two grays the other night and I do want to do some more shooting with that bullet to get a better understanding of just what it will do. I already know the Hornady 25s are too much of a good thing. They are great coyote bullets but just too much for fox.

I will say this, however, that the 17 Remington is the most drop-dead small caliber I have ever used. It is an amazing cartridge for dropping predators on the spot, in my experience.
It surpassed any of my expectations with regards to killing power.

 
Originally Posted By: RePeteStop hanging out with newbies and take that challenge over to Saubier. You'll find plenty of guys that have shot Fox for years with good results including the old timers from OZ that shot em by the hundreds back in the Fox Fur boom in the 70's.Their supposed stories from 40+ years ago don't match my personal experience on foxes. Not everybody here on Predator Masters is a newbie, and I'm not alone in my experience that 17 Rem damages foxes.

Originally Posted By: RePeteAs for me,,, I don't have Fox here and have never claimed to but I'm smart enough to know that a thin skinned, 5# animal won't take allot of lead. Does that make you a "newbie" since you lack personal experience shooting foxes? Also, I've never seen a 5# fox, they're much larger than that.

Originally Posted By: RePeteBTW,,,, have you ever actually skinned a predator? Just curious because all I saw in your links was one hole in the throat (that I could have sewed up) shot with a VMax.
I'm not sure a throat shot is much of a test anyway. Especially considering you used a bullet designed to come apart. Neck shots are common for me especially on foxes since I use hand calls and they are generally facing me and looking at me when I pull the trigger. Absent a broadside shot, I often put the bullet under the chin directly into the torso via the lower neck. My 223 load (40gr Vmax @ 3300 fps) has worked perfectly so far with this shot, as shown below:



The 17Rem 25gr HP (Hornady) and 20gr Vmax both blew huge holes in the entry wounds every time. Same distance, same angle, same point of entry. There is nothing ultimate about a gaping wound that makes skinning messy and requires creative sewing. Here's a damaged fox from my 17 Rem, this kind of damage experienced by myself and others here on PM is not acceptable for a "fur" gun:


"Ultimate" in my mind means it kills effectively and cleanly without damaging the fur. If fur was not a necessary consideration, then something more like a 243 Win or variant would be the "ultimate" because it certainly kills effectively. You agree fur consideration is a requirement based on your comment earlier in this thread:

Originally Posted By: RePete Seems that most of the replies to this thread think Coyotes are the only "predators" and that simply getting em kilt is the only objective.
For those guys the 243 or 223 or 30/06 for that matter are fine, but in my mind "ultimate" means do it all from Fox to Coyote. And since they're "fur bearers" it also means being able to harvest the fur whether one chooses to or not. When you throw all of that into the equation I still say a handy little bolt gun in 17Rem is about as close to "ultimate" as it gets. 
 
I agree foxes are predators, but then again so are wolves... Kinda rules out the 17.

HOWEVER, I was kinda joking when I said I felt I owned the ultimate predator rifle. I know there's no such thing. But I also know a tiny VLD won't tear up a fox and a 95 grain hunting bullet to the lungs of a wolf is gonna take plenty of pep from his step.

The best answers here to me are those that lend themselves to versatility, like my 6 WOA, or a 243, or even the common 223.

No perfect gun.... Just some closer than others.
 
Originally Posted By: CZ527I agree foxes are predators, but then again so are wolves... Kinda rules out the 17.

HOWEVER, I was kinda joking when I said I felt I owned the ultimate predator rifle. I know there's no such thing. But I also know a tiny VLD won't tear up a fox and a 95 grain hunting bullet to the lungs of a wolf is gonna take plenty of pep from his step.

The best answers here to me are those that lend themselves to versatility, like my 6 WOA, or a 243, or even the common 223.

No perfect gun.... Just some closer than others.

I wouldn't hesitate to take a wolf with a 17 Rem, if it were legal. I have seen Cougar killed with them.

I don't know that there is a "perfect" anything out there.
 
Originally Posted By: CoyotejunkiOriginally Posted By: CZ527I agree foxes are predators, but then again so are wolves... Kinda rules out the 17.

HOWEVER, I was kinda joking when I said I felt I owned the ultimate predator rifle. I know there's no such thing. But I also know a tiny VLD won't tear up a fox and a 95 grain hunting bullet to the lungs of a wolf is gonna take plenty of pep from his step.

The best answers here to me are those that lend themselves to versatility, like my 6 WOA, or a 243, or even the common 223.

No perfect gun.... Just some closer than others.

I wouldn't hesitate to take a wolf with a 17 Rem, if it were legal. I have seen Cougar killed with them.

I don't know that there is a "perfect" anything out there.

I don't remember the details or the guy's name, but in the 1970's and maybe later, there was a guy in Alaska who used the 17 Remington exclusively for wolves, and he killed a bunch of them with the cartridge. Maybe someone will chime in with more specifics like a name, etc.

As for cougars, probably more treed cougars have been shot with a 22 Mag than any other cartridge. It's always been the cartridge of choice with guys who hunt and tree them with dogs.
 
I like ta choot tem foxis wit my tree oh ate. I saves lotsa fur jist go piks it up after ya hits em an puts the fur in a baggie dont even gutta shkins em at way!
shocked.gif
 
Living in PA I call 10 foxes for every coyote I call in. I spent the money on a custom built 17 rem just for shooting them. I kill about 25 fox a year and one or two coyotes. My buddy built a 17 rem too and he kills about the same. We can't find a better caliber for both and usually only sew one or two fox each. We shoot facing or in the scapula and don't have much problem. We also don't use vmax's on animals they weren't designed for. I shoot berger's and he shoots the hornady 25 hollow point.
 
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