They Want Our Tax Money

OldTurtle

OldTurtle

Moderator - Deceased
I'm a firm believer in the "Buy American" concept. But I think it should be a two way street,,, I'm not getting into a brand bashing as this applies to GM as well as Ford.

When the U.S. Auto Makers are going to Congress to ask for our tax dollars to "Bail Them Out", our congressmen/women need to consider the following attitudes on the auto companies part...

Take a couple of minutes to see what Ford is doing to "help" themselves at our expense....

This is a short video of the plant in Brazil...

Brazilian Ford Plant

After you watch this, you really need to take the time to write your Congressman and Senators urging them NOT to support the proposed bailout of the big three automakers. It will quite obviously be another large chunk of our (taxpayers) money going for a futile cause - because those companies are not ever going to be able to change enough to be successful until the UAW is willing to make some huge changes. And that seems unlikely.Do not be scared into thinking that Ford, GM, and Chrysler are going to go under. They will survive, but their assembly operations in the US likely won't -- whether we provide a bailout or not.


And keep in mind that a huge percentage of the cars sold in the USA are made in the USA today -- not just by Ford, GM, and Chrysler -- but by Toyota, Honda, and many of the rest. They are built by American workers and they are being profitable. Why, you must ask? Because they are non-union operations and do not have the UAW hanging around their necks like large ship anchors.
 
Its a shame they cant kick the UAW out and create a plant like that right here in hometown America. The Auto unions are definately an anchor on American plants.
 
You wouldnt beleive the arguments I get into over the c.b. radio while out on the road when it comes to unions! Thankfully the pro union guys are in the minority!
 
Ive been saying for years that the uaw was going to ruin the us auto industry,now it looks like it might come true. unions were good at one time, then they started to take over the industries and demanding more and more until this. i say no bailout until the union is ousted.
 
Nice Video, but did you notice where and how the people live?
Do you suppose they have a health and saftey program? I could go on and on about foreign auto plants and how they differ from here in the USA. Let me say this, you wouldnt want your children or your wife working in most.
And everyones quick to jump on the unions dispite all that good they have for the country. Chances are you would'nt have near as much as you do, union or not if it wasnt for there past efforts.
The UAW is still willing to give consesions...again. Its a fact that Union wages and benefits make up less than 10% of the cost of a car. Do you think the other 90% is going to agree to take consessions to stay alive?
Besides the last I new it wasnt a bail out, it was a bridge loan that has to be paid back.
I'm a proud UAW member and I work in the supplier sector and we strive to help keep our company profitable while trying to obtain a decent living. Its a constint give and take, with out the company we couldnt exsist but without us neither could they.Both party's relalize this and it a win/win for everyone. The Big Three management and everyone envolved needs to work together and make equal consestions and hopfully we can all get through this.
 
I really think if they fail they fail period
Its not the unions that created their problems unions give the average employee a voice with management
I also am a union worker but I have worked non union as well and have seen both sides
believe me in some situations the workers would get stomped on if not for a collective voice but like everything it can have some drawbacks and abusers
Let em fall..... I should not have to pay for their folly /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angry-smiley-055.gif
 
if unions aren't a major part of the problem, why is it foreign manufacturers can set up plants here in the states, without unions, pay good wages & benefits & not be on the verge of sudden death?

They have the same laws, same environmental regs, same OSHEA requirements, same taxes, etc etc et friggin' cetera.

What else of significance is different other than the lack of unions?
 
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if unions aren't a major part of the problem, why is it foreign manufacturers can set up plants here in the states, without unions, pay good wages & benefits & not be on the verge of sudden death?

They have the same laws, same environmental regs, same OSHEA requirements, same taxes, etc etc et friggin' cetera.

What else of significance is different other than the lack of unions?



What significant differance?
How about there management team, the way they run there business, advertising,health and saftey. Not to mention that foreign companys are givin millions in tax breaks and incentives to bring there factorys here by our very own goverment.If the big three was to receive the same perks that Honda, Toyota, Mercedes get than they probley wouldnt be in the shape there in. These same companys launch huge anti union campains and often pay extreamly close to what the guys in Detriot are paid...just to keep unions out. Before you praise the foreign guys consider this, Its been reported , during the aftermath of 911 the big three and there unions gave 100,000's of thousands to help.Honda gave ...nothing. Toyota gave...nothing. The only foreign car company to give anything was VW at 10,000.00
The auto unions are not to blame, they got to where there at over the last 40+ years and when there companys where extreamly profitable the uaw just got there cut. As things have gotten worse The unions are accepting concesions and willing to take there lumps.Its bad decisions on mgts part thats got the big three in the mess there in. To many modles,to many dealerships,and actually competing within there self ae: chevy, olds, pontiac.... If you have a bad taste for unions thats your perogitve but dont blame everything on them.Its much bigger than that.
And once again....Its a short term loan with conditions. Unlike the millions that was givin to the banks with no strings or conditions.Why isnt anybody bashing there bank or credit card company.
I'm not trying to start a debat,honest. I have worked in non union shops and organized shops and done allright with both. I can see both sides of the fence. I just dont like the media and some people bashing the average factory worker who trys to chissel out a middle class life style for themselfs and family. Ok I'm done now /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif lets agree to disagree and go coyote huntin /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
 
it's been reported that they gave nothing, and there are counter claims tha they did. I don't know which claim is true.

health & safety? they're making them here, under our laws. same health & safety laws & regs.

they pay near the same wages? really, so labor costs aren't the issue?

labor is the same, compliance is the same, i keep coming back to unions being absent as a pretty big factor.

gonna have to do better than that.
 
Never said labor cost wasnt an issue...but its not the only issue. I did say the unions are willing to give consesions and do there part.
So if the Unions just .."poof".. went away, the problem would simply go away? Thats really comical.

Wonder why all the congress,corporate accountants,lawyers,ect didnt think of that? I figure there probley a little smarter than me and realize thats not the only solution.If that was the the real/only problem they wouldnt be asking for any help..they would simply file bankruptcy, close the facility for a breif amount of time and bust the union in the process.Then they could just reopen, hire some people who wanted to work for 9.00 p/hr with no benefits and life would be good.

That was easy, whats next? world hunger,cancer,the war, gun control...no wait, we probley agree on that....
 
sorry if you're a union guy who doesn't like what may be coming down the pike. it isn't going to be fun for anyone.
 
My dad belonged to a union in a meat packing plant. Back 30 years ago it was considered a mid class income. Now, one cannot work in the same plant unless you agree to work for less then what my dad made 30 years ago. Now, no union, low wages, less benefits, and you pretty much have to speak spanish to work there. I do agree that the unions are the cause of the higher wages paid to the employees, but is that the problem or is it that we allow foreign companies to come in and force the wages down. The same is happening to other industries through outsourcing. The result is the same. We all have to take a pay cut when there is a increase in the labor force. In my opinion, one cannot blame the union for fighting for higher wage for their members.
 
wait, the other guy said that foreign car makers are paying comparable wages "to keep the unions out". if that's so, they aren't forcing wages down.
 
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if unions aren't a major part of the problem, why is it foreign manufacturers can set up plants here in the states, without unions, pay good wages & benefits What else of significance is different other than the lack of unions?

when did toyota, honda, ect start paying good wages and benefits? where were the foreign car manf. after 9/11 and hurrican Katrina? GM almost single handedly kept the economy floating during 2002. not to mentioned they played a huge role in resupply NYFD with rescue trucks. the big three and UAW have always come through and helped their neighbors. Here in Janesville, WI GM/UAW annually give the united way $400,000 not bad. there will be a lot of people going without next year after the plant closes. Good bless the UAW,

ps it was UNIONS that gave us weekends, holidays, OT, retirement, OSHA, FMLA, sick leave, vacation time, ect. read a history book sometime!

oh yea, I forgot to add, Rick Wagner CEO of GM makes more moeny than the TOP 32 execs. at Toyota. check it out sometime.
 
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I really think if they fail they fail period
Its not the unions that created their problems unions give the average employee a voice with management
I also am a union worker but I have worked non union as well and have seen both sides
believe me in some situations the workers would get stomped on if not for a collective voice but like everything it can have some drawbacks and abusers
Let em fall..... I should not have to pay for their folly /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angry-smiley-055.gif



In all fairness then banks should be given back there trillions of dollars. 800 billion? that was not enough, 15 billion is a drop in the bucket /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/angry-smiley-055.gif

It's a can of worms, at least with a big three bailout, my fellow man that turns a wrench may have a job, But with the banks well I guess someone has to send us an overdraft notices, right? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
 
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Never said labor cost wasnt an issue...but its not the only issue. I did say the unions are willing to give consesions and do there part.
So if the Unions just .."poof".. went away, the problem would simply go away? Thats really comical.

Wonder why all the congress,corporate accountants,lawyers,ect didnt think of that? I figure there probley a little smarter than me and realize thats not the only solution.If that was the the real/only problem they wouldnt be asking for any help..they would simply file bankruptcy, close the facility for a breif amount of time and bust the union in the process.Then they could just reopen, hire some people who wanted to work for 9.00 p/hr with no benefits and life would be good.

That was easy, whats next? world hunger,cancer,the war, gun control...no wait, we probley agree on that....



Well with the news today on the UAW unwilling to make wage concessions (business as usual with a gun to the head of the big 3) and the bailout failing, your going to think 9 bucks an hours pretty good pay.


By the way, the big 3 having to file bankruptcy isnt the end of the world, I think we are being sold a [beeep] sandwhich from congress, the whitehouse and the scare falls to the markets, which is BS far as I am concerned.

More over the labor problems they have, they are not making cars people really want to drive. Alot of them are junk and spend a bit of time in the shop. Resale values on them are in the toilet, why, every 3 years they come out with the new and improved model, nobody want the old one's anymore. The ones they do make that we want to drive, the government wants to get rid of under cafe standards, emissions, fuel standards etc.

Listen close GM, You dont need to make 40 different cars and trucks under what like 8 brands?. We want you to make a dozen good ones, and if its from one brand, then so be it.

I am by no means a fan of the unions, I have seen them at work breeding laziness and contempt. I also understand this goes beyond them to the management of the big three and the people who impose these ridiculous standards and rules. How many of those capital hill asshats have a ford, gm, or chrysler in the garage......do they really give a [beeep]?
 
unions give the average worker some leverage against unfair wages and discriminatory practices management that they can and do practice.
I do agree that the management of the Big 3 could have and should have done things a bit differently,
Why would a CEO of a company waste their time going to Wash.to ask for a handout when their company is failing?
If the person that makes what 10 employees make is in such a position to run a company why are they not trying to create a fix for the problem instead of asking for government intervention and handouts ?
plain and simple they are not capable of producing results to remedy the problem /Down the road /
Someone who knows how to run a buis is going to pic up the auto industry and make it a viable industry again
 
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unions give the average worker some leverage against unfair wages and discriminatory practices management that they can and do practice.
I do agree that the management of the Big 3 could have and should have done things a bit differently,
Why would a CEO of a company waste their time going to Wash.to ask for a handout when their company is failing?
If the person that makes what 10 employees make is in such a position to run a company why are they not trying to create a fix for the problem instead of asking for government intervention and handouts ?
plain and simple they are not capable of producing results to remedy the problem /Down the road /
Someone who knows how to run a buis is going to pic up the auto industry and make it a viable industry again




If the unions are so wonderful then why aren't American workers who build Toyotas, BMWs Nissans and Hondas clamoring to join the UAW? Answer- they don't want to end up like the Big Three. Will limiting executive compensation give incentive for the best CEO's to "make it a viable industry", especially with another bureaucrat "car czar" looking over his shoulder? The Soviets tried this crap and it didn't work. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif


bailout.jpg
 
imho... i think the union is good and bad... im salary and work with union workers everyday.. our management group and our union is the problem with our company.. we cant get material out of the plant bc a supervisor said something a union guy didnt like and he's pouting about it or guys turning there milling machines and lathes down to turtle speeds for spite so the salary employees have to stay late along with them.. the union is a plague in my plant with out a doubt when it comes to production and manufacturing..... but with that said.. i know what its like to be screwed over on pay or forced to work when you didnt want to.. atleast these guys have a set of guidelines the supervisors and management have to follow otherwise they would walk all over them like dogs and just replace them when they fall apart... the management mentality is bad in this country that the laborer is a pee-on and scum and can be treated like scum... ill be honest, if i ever caught a few out in public id probably be in jail for a few nights...

when your a salary guy looking in at the workings of a union factory.. you see the good and bad in both... what it boils down too is neither one is good for the other.management and union dont see eye to eye on anything and that just means bad buisness.
 
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