tumbling bullet? what the heck?

J

Jacob_Hanan

New member
i started to work up a load for my dads 6mm rem and the first three i have shot hit the target sidways? i started a the starting charge and loaded to the correct length.

its a rem 742 autoloader.

what am i doing wrong?
 
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Weren't there issues with the .244 twist rates in the very early years... If I remember correctly, they were originally very slow for lighter bullets. So, you may have to determine the twist rate and then calculate maximum bullet weight from that. Or, (and it might just be the cause) examine the barrel crown for obvious damage.

The obvious first question though is... Did it preform okay with factory ammo? "mike" your bullets and make sure something isn't haywire on that issue.

Finally, some guns don't like some bullets... "gremlins", maybe.
 
I agree with 5spd--it sounds more like a crown problem, but it doesn't hurt to try some factory loads to verify.

A good gunsmith would have a tool to recrown the barrel. Should be easy and cheap.
 
Originally Posted By: Jacob_Hanani started to work up a load for my dads 6mm rem and the first three i have shot hit the target sidways? i started a the starting charge and loaded to the correct length.

its a rem 742 autoloader.

what am i doing wrong?

We need to know more about the ammo you loaded. Details, like bullet weight, powder type and how much you used, as well as what primers. The twist of the rifle barrel is important to know too.
 
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berger 105s vld hunting, 42 grains of imr 4350, 1-9 twist.

it shoots factory well but we live in the sticks and its the middle of deer season and won't be able to get more ammo for a while and i have all the stuff to reload for it so i thought i would work up a load for him.

i cant figure it out. i wouldnt think it would be shooting too fast.

it did flatten the primer a bit.
 
Originally Posted By: Jacob_Hananberger 105s vld hunting...... 1-9 twist.

There is your answer. I figured as much. Bullet is not being stabilized. Twist too slow......
 
Originally Posted By: Greg_MeyerWeren't there issues with the .244 twist rates in the very early years... If I remember correctly, they were originally very slow for lighter bullets. So, you may have to determine the twist rate and then calculate maximum bullet weight from that. Or, (and it might just be the cause) examine the barrel crown for obvious damage.

The obvious first question though is... Did it preform okay with factory ammo? "mike" your bullets and make sure something isn't haywire on that issue.

Finally, some guns don't like some bullets... "gremlins", maybe.
If I remember correctly when Rem came out with the 243 and 244 the barrels were twisted differently. The 243 stabilized the heavier bullets while the 244 would not. The 244 kind of fell out of favor because of that. Later on Rem re-marketed the 244 and changed the twist rate and called it the 6mm. Thats how I remember it anyhow. If the barrel is stamped 244 on this particular gun then you may have to shoot lighter bullets. Dave
 
The original 244 was a 1 in 12 twist while the 243 was 1 in 9. The 244 would only stabilize up to 90 grain bullets. I don't think the weight of the bullet makes as much difference as the length of the bearing surface of the bullet.
 
You guys seem to have it nailed down. Looks like the 740 was produced from 1955 till 1959 with the 244 as a caliber option with the aforementioned twist rate problem with heavier bullets. The 742 started production with the 6mm (same cartridge/new name) option in 1960, but I'm not sure if they changed the twist rate right away or not. Haven't found anything specific on that yet. Even with the faster twist barrel, the very-long-for-caliber Berger 105 VLD's might not stabilize. Berger recommends a 1:8 twist for these bullets - http://www.bergerbullets.com/Products/Hunting%20Bullets.html

I have a 760 pump in 244 Rem with the slower twist barrel and have yet to wring out the 85 gr. Barnes TSX's & 85 gr. Hornady Interbonds I bought for it. Trying the lighter/shorter, but more solid bullet approach from the start cuz I know what others have experienced going down this road.

http://www.remington.com/library/history/firearm_models/centerfire/model_740.asp

http://www.remington.com/library/history/firearm_models/centerfire/model_742.asp

In short, probably your bullets are too long for your twist. But while your loading them, I'd check the other factors mentioned too.
 
Appears the twist change came in 1958 already, but the name change in 1960. Only 3 years of guns out there with the 244 moniker and the 1:12 twist, and a few more years of 244 with the faster twist, according to this (this info varies from Remington's site info by a few years):

6mm Remington (244 Remington)

It has been said on more than one occasion that when Remington engineers were developing the .244, their primary objective was to come up with a high performance varmint cartridge and for this reason decided to go with a maximum bullet weight of 90 grains. This isn't exactly true. Instead, after extensive testing of many bullet weights, it was decided that optimum weights for the .257 Roberts case necked down to 6mm were 75 grains for varmints and 90 grains for deer. A rifling pitch rate of 1-12" proved to be the best compromise. The rest, as they say, is history.

For reasons that no one can explain (or prove), deer hunters decided that the .243 Winchester with its 10 more grains a bullet was a better choice. Or at least this is the traditional explanation. Possibly a factor even of greater influence was the rifles the two cartridges were available in. The .244 was offered in the Model 722, a rifle about as handsome as a fence post. The .243 was available in the sexy little Model 70 Featherweight. When it came to looks, there was no contest.

Around 1958, Remington started rifling all .244" caliber barrels with the 1-9" twist, but nobody seemed to notice. In 1962 when the new Model 700 rifle was introduced, the only 6mm cartridge it was available in was the .243 Winchester, but during the next year the .244's name changed to 6mm Remington and reintroduced in the Remington bolt action.

While Model 722 and 725 rifles with 1-12" twists will stabilize 100 and 105 grain round nose bullets, they usually prefer 95 grains or less when loaded with spitzers. Since Remington dropped the 90 grain 6mm factory load, those who hunt deer with the early 722's have no choice but to handload. Later .244 Remington rifles with 1-9" twist will handle the 100 grain factory load.


Source: Hodgdon Data Manual, 26th Edition

FWIW
 
Great history lessons guys, but I fail to see how it matters. As I already stated, the 742 was never chambered in 244 Rem. The 6mm version was only twisted 1-9". His twist is too slow for the VLD bullet. Case closed.......
 
2muchgun,
You have it backwards buddy....he already said in his last post that the twist is 1-9 . That is a good fast twist for the 105 gr bullets. The original .244 was 1-12 and could not stablize the heavy bullets. I have an original .244 in 1-12 and it only shoots up to 75 gr. real good. After that they get ugly.
 
2muchgun,
I think you are confused today...1-9 twist is a fast twist...in other words it makes one whole turn (twist in every 9 inches of bbl. A slow twist is like the 1-12 twist, makes a turn (twist) in every 12 inches of bbl. ga-beesh
 
2muchgun,
I don't want to make a peeing contest out of this, but you stated that his 1-9 twist is to slow for his 105 gr. vld bullets. Thats the way you have it posted...well that is the perfect twist for the heavier bullets. The 1-12 twist is to slow for the heavier bullets in any caliber. I have a 1-12 twist in .223 cal. and it won't shoot the bullets above 60 gr.
 
If you go to Bergers website, you will see that they recommend a 1-8 twist for his 105gr VLD bullet. I can't say it any more plainly......
 


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