Using dogs

They will never have the hunt divided... they are simply letting everyone know that they support all types of predator hunting. Hounds to calls, both have their plus and minus. But... you must remember BOTH are predator hunting. Do I hunt with hounds... no, would I... yeah, if I had the time and money to sink into it! You think predator hunting is expensive... holy cow, get a good dog and watch the bank account goooooooooooo! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Just remember guys, hunting is hunting... be it with dogs or with a call. I say work together or hunt hounds for a day then call a day! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
I hunted Mosquito Creek last year and did nothing but get a lot of snow in my scope and let a coyote leave a butt print in the snow as he barked at me and 'groundchuck' from across a road. Did I want a dog to run that coyote down and push him back to us that night... you bet! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
 
I'm not from Pa but have heard of the Mosquito Creek Contest for many years. My question is this: is it advertised as a predator hunting callers event only or is it open for all hunting disciplines to particapate?
If it is the latter then it would seem that everyone knows what they are getting into when they sign on the bottom line.
 
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They will never have the hunt divided


That is correct, the clubs holding these hunts could care less if its fair or not, they are making money and that's what its about for them.
Besides that, there is no way they could have a calling class and a dog class. Doing that would open up more room for cheating and there is too much cheating going on already.
I do not enter money hunts and never will, UNLESS they have a seperate class for callers AND had either, a polygraph or a person tag along with a calling team to make sure everything is on the level.

My thoughts on coyote hounds:
First let me say I have three dogs, and had two other dogs before these. I KNOW they take a lot of time, money, and work. (see pic below)
I'm not crazy about guys running coyotes with dogs for my own selfish reasons.
Its definetly unfair to have callers competing against dogs. The cost and time involved with dogs does not make it fair or even the odds. Also, guys using dogs are working in teams. One guy registers for the hunt and then has his own teams of guys & dogs and that ONE guy turns in 4 or 5 coyotes that were taking by many guys & dogs, TALK ABOUT UNFAIR! Every member of the team is saposta reg. for the hunt but I'm sure they don't and there is NO WAY to prove who got what and that everyone involved is registered.
I do not consider running coyotes with hounds hunting. Once the hounds are trained they do 95% of the work. And then there is also the legal issues, I don't know for sure how they use dogs but from what I hear they drive along roads looking for tracks and then put the dogs on them, then drive to a "cut-off" point and get out and shoot. According to PA game laws you can in NO WAY use a motorized vehicle or radio device for hunting. I guess it is considered road hunting. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif

As long as 4,000 plus people sign up for these money hunts every year nothing will change.



Here is a link to a 6 page thread about PA money hunts and coyote hounds.
Mosquitto creek, keep updated

IMG_1919.jpg
 
Here are the results from last weekends hunt.

COYOTE HUNT 2007
Feb. 16,17,18, 2007
3,880 Registered Hunters

78 TOTAL COYOTES

$31,040.00 Total Prize Money

1st - $7,760.00 2nd.- $4,656.00 3rd. $3,104.00

$15,520.00 Divided among all coyotes brought in. - $198.97 each

1 st Place – ( # 74) Chris Haines 47.30 lbs.
2nd Place - (# 60) Bob Hendrickson 46.35lbs.
3rd Place - (# 28) Nick Greer 45.45lbs.

Dogs -----46
Calls------25
Tracking- 6
Sitting - 1


Here is a link to Mosquito Creek's coyote hunt results page. There are results posted here from the past 3 years.
Mosquito Creek hunt results
 
None of my posts had anything to do with animal rights or the inhumanity of hunting, so your PETA comment is completely off topic and quite ignorant. If you are going to argue at least come up with a valid point.

PAYotehunter.. I agree with all you said. Took the words from my mouth. Mosquito Creek wont ever cut the contest into two seperate ones or drop the dogs from calling. And honestly how can you blame them, if you drog dogs the registered hunters may drop to 2,000 or less. Its all about money. So it wont ever happen.Then their total revenue drops. Its basically a lose-lose situation.

And so we are on the same page, Im not questioning the ethics of hunting coyotes with dogs. I am just questioning why callers have to try and compete with DOGS. Its a battle that dogs will win everytime. The seperation would make it a level playing field. And if I'm correct, this is what everyone who agrees with me is saying as well.
 
Again you're arguing a point that is irrelevant. I never said a "caller" couldnt take the biggest coyote. I am saying that "callers" are at a disadvantage. The dogs will bring in more coyotes than caller will on any given year. Count up the dogs/callers and tell me who has more. Quit trying to twist my statements into something you want it to say. I NEVER said a caller could not take the biggest coyote. Calling or dogging has nothing to do with the size of a coyote taken. But the calling/dogging will consistently be higher for dogs than calls.

And furthermore to explain my statement where I said "its a battle dogs will win everytime" That did not mean who would get the biggest coyote. That statement meant the dogs will continually bring in more coyotes than the callers do.
 
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I'm done with this I apologize for my rude comments, there is no point in this bickering. I wish though that you would approach some of these houndmen and ask to go along one time and experience it and then make your judgments about how easy it is. In some of your posts you make houndmen sound like slobs and while yes there are some out there (there is in every sport) I guarentee you they are the minority. It is not the houndsmen fault that the contest isn't split so maybe you should aim your ranting at the powers that be at Mosquito Creek. In the end we are all out there just trying to enjoy what we love be it with calls or dogs. With sportsmen arguing back and forth I'm not sure for how long. Good luck and good hunting.
 
Quote: "I do not consider running coyotes with hounds hunting. Once the hounds are trained they do 95% of the work."

So when I used to hunt rabbits with hounds I wasn't really hunting?
When our bird huntin... I mean killing friends foray into the field with their pointers they aren't really hunting?
When the Norweigians use their Moose dogs to bay a moose they aren't really hunting?
Makes me glad I'm a dedicated coyote CALLER! Now I can puff my chest out and tell everyone I'M A HUNTER!!!
Glad that was clarified.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif

Sometimes we are our own worst enemies.
 
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beagler i agree with what you are saying
what do you think about having different groups for the hunt?


I think that would be a great idea. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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Who won the contest in 2006? What method was used? Matthew Borger 51.30 LB. Female "calls".


Yeah, the method "calls" should be changed to baited.....ooooh but wait, that was before baiting was legal in PA. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

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I wish though that you would approach some of these houndmen and ask to go along one time and experience it and then make your judgments about how easy it is.


I've asked for the past few years to go along and see what its about. I have a cabin in Pike co. and know there are guys that run hounds in that area but I never got an invite.
Running coyotes with hounds is legal and therefor I have no problem with guys doing it. Heck I don't even give a rats azz that they use vehicles to get from point A to point B.
The thing I don't like is I used to spend a great deal of time scouting around my cabin only to go back up and find the coyotes scattered by hounds. That was the "my own selfish reasons" part in my post above.


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So when I used to hunt rabbits with hounds I wasn't really hunting?
When our bird huntin... I mean killing friends foray into the field with their pointers they aren't really hunting?



I've hunted rabbits & birds with and without dogs and it is defintely EASIER with dogs. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
 
I wouldn't even dream of hunting cottontail/hare without a few good beagles! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif
Nothing like listening to a pack of good dogs driving. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif
 
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I wouldn't even dream of hunting cottontail/hare without a few good beagles! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-006.gif
Nothing like listening to a pack of good dogs driving. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif



Man, you ain't ah kidd'in! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif I would LOVE to get back into rabbit hunting and some grouse. That would be a blast! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
 
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Who won the contest in 2006? What method was used? Matthew Borger 51.30 LB. Female "calls".


Yeah, the method "calls" should be changed to baited.....ooooh but wait, that was before baiting was legal in PA. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

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I wish though that you would approach some of these houndmen and ask to go along one time and experience it and then make your judgments about how easy it is.


I've asked for the past few years to go along and see what its about. I have a cabin in Pike co. and know there are guys that run hounds in that area but I never got an invite.
Running coyotes with hounds is legal and therefor I have no problem with guys doing it. Heck I don't even give a rats azz that they use vehicles to get from point A to point B.
The thing I don't like is I used to spend a great deal of time scouting around my cabin only to go back up and find the coyotes scattered by hounds. That was the "my own selfish reasons" part in my post above.


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So when I used to hunt rabbits with hounds I wasn't really hunting?
When our bird huntin... I mean killing friends foray into the field with their pointers they aren't really hunting?



I've hunted rabbits & birds with and without dogs and it is defintely EASIER with dogs. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif

 
sorry I goofed. I'm not very puter savy. But yotehunter you have summed it all up in a nutshell "your own selfish reasons"!!! That my friend is something that you should be ashamed of. Do you know how many times I have tried to take my squirrel dogs to the woods on state game lands where we are all supposed to be able to hunt how we choose and run into deer hunters and have them belittle and berate me for screwing up "there" hunt. Or how many times I've been shot at at night time for coon hunting on ground where I have permission. It sounds to me if hunting with dogs ever came up on the ballot you would vote to ban it. You keep saying hunting with dogs is "easy", I have an older friend that I respect very much that caught me shooting my mouth off one time about something I really didn't know that much about and he said to me "KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT AND DON'T SHOW YOUR IGNORANCE". That was advice that I took and still use. Maybe you should try it.
 
Lets put it this way:

All of you that are complaining about people using dogs are being stupid like Zumbo complaining about the AR and AK. IT's THE SAME DANG THING!!!! Ya, I said stupid. We need to stick together. When will we ever learn.

CB
 
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But yotehunter you have summed it all up in a nutshell "your own selfish reasons"!!! That my friend is something that you should be ashamed of.


Sorry, but I'm not. I tell it like it is, like it or not.


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It sounds to me if hunting with dogs ever came up on the ballot you would vote to ban it.


I never really thought about it but now that you mention it....No, I would not vote to ban hunting with dogs.


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You keep saying hunting with dogs is "easy"


I just went back and read through my posts. Please show me where I said coyote hunting with dogs is easy.

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"KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT AND DON'T SHOW YOUR IGNORANCE". That was advice that I took and still use. Maybe you should try it.


I'm not as ignorant on the subject as you may think. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif


I think I feel the way I do because I started coyote hunting in PA before most people knew there were coyotes in PA and I watched predator hunting change sooooo much over the last 15 years, more so in the last 5 years, and I'm not sure I like it. Again for my own selfish reasons. I know its tough crap on my part, but I don't have to like it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
Sorry if this bothers you.
 
Even though the dog hunter's have an advantage, I'm not opposed to they're hunting that way. There is no effective way to divide up contests or tourney's for just caller's & dog hunter's. There would still be cheating going on. Depending on how the hunter uses his particular dogs, depends on how much work is put in during a hunt. If the trails in the snow are flattened out in a big figure 8, and the yotes are chased around the artificially made, packed down trail, until they pass the standers for a shot, that's not hard hunting. I don't care for that method personally, even though it's very very effective.

Those whose dog's can strike a cold trail and track down a yote with the hunter's in tow once they bay, is more acceptable to me. That's more traditional hound hunting, and it's actually very hard work to keep up with those hounds.
I will just have to work harder for next year, and I'll have to spend more time afield scouting, in order to compete with the hound hunter's. I like a good challenge anyways.

As for types of dogs they use: I see many of them are "running walker hounds". Most are mix of walker and July. These seem to be taller, rangier dogs, and are faster versions of standard walker coon hounds. Some also use straight walker's, but only those down from good, proven coon hunting stock, and not field trial dogs.
Most desire a cold nosed dog... One who can strike a trail off a cold/old track, and can even do so in snow.

Hound raising and training is very time consuming and quite expensive. Not anyone can just go buy some hounds and train them to be good hounds. There is a whole lot of time and effort involved in breaking them of running "trash." During this time, one may endure several sessions of removing porcupine quills from the hounds mouth. The vet bills are lovely, and you must have room to kennel said hounds. Then there is money tied up in tracking/training collars, dog boxes for transport, etc etc.

My father keeps and kennels 3 walker's. He loves to coon hunt. He has more time, effort, and money wrapped up in those dogs, than a normal person can comprehend. Take all the hundreds of hours of training and effort, and then try having your hound chase the game across a road, only to get hit and killed by a car...it happens more than you know.
So in essence, while it does make me less likely to ever win a contest by calling, when hound hunter's participate in the same events, I'm ok with that.

I'm a dog man myself, albeit in a different way. I fight "breed specific legislation", because once the liberal's get what they want, it will NEVER stop there. If we give an inch, they want to take a foot. So if we in any way condemn hound hunting, or cry about it being unfair to those of us who don't use hounds, that is actually ammunition for the liberals. They will take it and run with it. Man has been hunting with dogs for centuries, and I believe it's part of our heritage, and it should remain within our rights to do so if we choose.
 
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