Utah!! RANT!!!

The WISE oldturtle speaks true! It would be a mistake to shoot at someone, a Hmong in MN shot and killed 5 or so of the hunters that tried to chase him off their spot. I gave a guy the finger for his poor driving of a semi, I found out I was the one who was going to be charged if I pursued the action this guy took afterwards.
 
I know the area and it has been private and normally posted for as long as I can remember. If they were locals, which I'm they were, they knew it wasn't open.

The Cattlemans Association has a lot of power in Utah regarding the trespass laws. Because of this pressure they changed the law in 2009 to include "rangeland" in the state statue. It used to be if the land was not cultivated the landowner must post his property every 300 ft with signs or orange paint. If the land was cultivated it was automatic No Tresspass and didn't need to be posted. No longer is this the case...

As I said in 2009 they included the term "rangeland" in the statue. This is pretty much a blanket trespass staute to hook a guy for trespassing even if the property is not posted or fenced. Obviously a fence is designed to keep "intruders" out, but many times BLM land is fenced to keep livestock from getting hit by vehicles. It has come to the point in Utah [like WY & MT] where a person must take responsibility to know who's land he is on at all times.

BTW: this is my first post, but I've been a lurker for a couple of years.
 
odawgp, I am so sorry for your ordeal, what a mess. I hate trespasser and poachers. We have them on our farm all the time.

But dude I have to tell you that your attitude towards the UDWR Conservation officers is pretty telling. WHY do you hate them so badly? Most of them are good guys doing a tough job with out enough help and are underpaid for what they do. If I was a CO and I had to deal with a Land Owner with your attitude it would not be too pleasant.

By the way in Utah Land that is not irrigated, tilled or under crop rotation has to be posted. As a landowner you have the right to ask someone to leave your unposted land but if they do they are technically breaking no law. The UDWR stresses that sportsman should know where they are and ask permission first, but you can go on non farmed unposted land.

All of this does not excuse poaching. I called the poaching hotline tonight and there was a CO, and three County sheriffs there in 10 minutes.

I have a feeling that there is something going on that you are not telling us. If what you say is true it will come to light. A poaching case this large will make all the news channels with in a day or two.

By the way, one of the biggest bucks ever poached in Utah was killed by a Colorado "guide" and his Colorado client out of season with no tags.

Poaching is not limited to Utah, it is a nation wide problem that we as hunters need to stop. It makes all law abiding sportsmen and women look bad.

I call ever time I see anything suspicions and have always been treated very professionally by the DWR. I take pride when I get a poacher busted!

Is the ranch a CWMU or do you just have landowner tags?

Dude, sorry if I came off a like I am not supporting you. I have stood in your shoes and it is horrible. We defiantly have problem here with lack of respect for property rights. I kick guys off our farm so often it is a joke. I also know what it is like to have them rip down signs. Paint is the only way to go. Try to make friends with the county sheriff and your CO. You want those guys on your side. They catch crap from everyone and after a while they stop liking being the punching bags. Remember it was not the CO who trespassed and poached those elk.
 
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Originally Posted By: littledawgI know the area and it has been private and normally posted for as long as I can remember. If they were locals, which I'm they were, they knew it wasn't open.

The Cattlemans Association has a lot of power in Utah regarding the trespass laws. Because of this pressure they changed the law in 2009 to include "rangeland" in the state statue. It used to be if the land was not cultivated the landowner must post his property every 300 ft with signs or orange paint. If the land was cultivated it was automatic No Tresspass and didn't need to be posted. No longer is this the case...

As I said in 2009 they included the term "rangeland" in the statue. This is pretty much a blanket trespass staute to hook a guy for trespassing even if the property is not posted or fenced. Obviously a fence is designed to keep "intruders" out, but many times BLM land is fenced to keep livestock from getting hit by vehicles. It has come to the point in Utah [like WY & MT] where a person must take responsibility to know who's land he is on at all times.

BTW: this is my first post, but I've been a lurker for a couple of years.



Welcome!

You are wrong about the addition of "ranglands" This is from the new 2010 big game proclamation.

Trespassing
Utah Code §§ 23-20-14 and 23-20-3.5
While taking wildlife or engaging in wildlife-related activities, you may not do any of the following activities:
Enter upon privately owned land that is • cultivated or properly posted without the permission of the owner or the person in charge of the land
Refuse to immediately leave the private • land if requested to do so by the owner or person in charge
Obstruct any entrance or exit to
• private property
“Cultivated land” is land that is readily identifiable
as land whose soil is loosened or broken up for the raising of crops, land used for the raising of crops, or a pasture that is artificially irrigated.
“Permission” means written authorization from the owner or person in charge to enter
upon private land that is cultivated or properly posted. Permission must include all of the following
details:
The signature of the owner or person
• in charge
The name of the person being given
• permission
The appropriate dates •
A general description of the land •
“Properly posted” means that “No Trespassing”
signs—or a minimum of 100 square inches of bright yellow, bright orange or fluorescent paint—are displayed at all corners, on fishing streams crossing property lines, and on roads, gates and rights-of-way entering the land. If metal fence posts are used, the entire exterior side must be painted.
You may not post private property you do not own or legally control or land that is open to the public as provided by Utah Code § 23-21-4. In addition, it is unlawful to take protected wildlife or its parts while trespassing in violation of Utah Code § 23-20-14.
You are guilty of a class B misdemeanor if you violate any provision described in this section. Your license, tag or permit privileges may also
be suspended.

Page 42
 
Originally Posted By: littledawg Because of this pressure they changed the law in 2009 to include "rangeland" in the state statue. It used to be if the land was not cultivated the landowner must post his property every 300 ft with signs or orange paint. If the land was cultivated it was automatic No Tresspass and didn't need to be posted. No longer is this the case...

As I said in 2009 they included the term "rangeland" in the statue.


Where have you read that. It is not in the Utah code 23-20-14 that is used by the fish and game in the proclamation. Give me something that shows range land.
 
Originally Posted By: reb8600Odawgp- I believe I said I agree with you about it being our responsibility. No one disagrees with that. The land owner needs to take some responsibility and post things also. Utah is very clear about posting the land. You want to talk about obeying the law. Did you read the proclamation. In Utah you are not supposed to be hunting on any temporary game preserves. A temporary game preserve is anywhere there is a big game hunt happening. Did you take the time to read that in the proclamation? I dont know that they enforce it but it is the law.

You seem to believe there are reliable maps out there that show land ownership. Why dont you enlighten us on where you find them. Dont tell me BLM maps because I have the whole state of Utah and those maps are old and outdated just like the forest service maps. The forest service maps give a number for the road and put a sign on the road with a different number. A lot of Utah is checker boarded with private and public. If you head out in the desert, at one time or another you will cross private land unmarked and not fenced.

You say that after 2 days the paint was gone off the fence posts? I find it very hard to believe that anyone took the time to remove the paint from them. In a previous post you stated the signs were only put on the game gates. Do you even know how it was posted.

With the way this state is about poaching I am begining to doubt you called the fish and game. They just had an article about some elk that were poached and offering rewards. They do care here. So far you havent had a good thing to say about the DWR here. If you are that unhappy with the way they do things, I guess you wont hunt here again.

i agree 1000%
 
I have to add my second set of comments.
Coming from a background in law enforcement, I think I have a good base from what I am going to say.

There are 2 issues at hand, not 1.
First is trespassing. Trespassing, as per Utah statute, I believe is (in reference to land, not a building) knowingly entering onto a property, with an intent to commit a crime.
Second is poaching. No explanation needed.

Now, if a person knowingly enters a property, with intent to commit a crime, and the crime itself is a felony, then the trespassing crime is a felony as well.
Automatic 2 counts felony.

As a land owner and/or resident, you are lawful to remove any non-resident from the property and/or building by force, if they will not remove themselves when told to do so.

In addition, you have the right to enact a citizens arrest, for felonies, if you have the means to do so.

Now, I am sure that holding a person at gun point in downtown Salt Lake, in your backyard will bring a different reaction from local PD, then doing to same action, in a neighboring county, with either a deputy or sheriff responding.

There you go.
 
Originally Posted By: kmcintosh78
There are 2 issues at hand, not 1.
First is trespassing. Trespassing, as per Utah statute, I believe is (in reference to land, not a building) knowingly entering onto a property, with an intent to commit a crime.


I'm not sure that your definition of trespass is correct there. In Utah, or anywhere else for that matter.
 
I was an officer in Gilbert, and that is the AZ statute.
I am thinking that maybe a worded it incorrectly.
In thinking about it, that is the "Burglary" statute.

For trespassing, exclude the "with an intent to commit a crime".

But with that said, if you trespass on property to poach, that would fall under the burglary statute. 3 felonies.

My mistake.
Thanks
 
Sorry there is some Bad blood between the DOW and my wife's family

The boundary dispute between them and the solder summit CWMU has left a bad taste in the families mouth.

At one time the the outfitter even employed the husband of the area DNR officer. That is when it got ugly eventually the dispute was settle by the wildlife commission. To make a long story short.

Maps showing every piece of private property are available for purchase at the county offices. Some of them are now even available for purchase which can be uploaded to a gps.

I have used this one for Utah. Haven't purches the CO one yet. Still plenty of maps available that I can over lay onto my map source maps and trace the boundaries which i can then verify with know fence line ect It is long and hard process but doable with anyone with a GPS and PC

http://www.huntinggpsmaps.com/Utah/GPSBLM_mapdownload.html

As to weather or not this will be solved I doubt it

I saw them only from a distance and there was no out of place vehicle that I could see and get info off. they got to the fence and a pickup showed up to get them.

the next day 4 headless carcasses where found and report
only evidence was the carcasses and footprints in and out in the snow.

like I said this had to have been done at night as they didn't have but one rifle on there person(s) when I saw the four of them running out to the game gate.

So far we have had 6 elk illegally killed and 2 being removed from the property only gut piles left.

the exact words from the DOW officers

"We can see foot prints in and out and we have found the carcasses and gut piles but without more evidence we can't do much more than just watch the property, they must be doing it at night"

That said I am unsubscribing to this thread, I hope others reading this will remember the next time they go out that they represent not just themselves but the rest of us and they should be respectful of other and their property.

I hope they catch the SOB's poaching up there, every year they find and report 5-6 carcasses and never hear nothing of it again.

Happy Hunting
 
Originally Posted By: kmcintosh78I was an officer in Gilbert, and that is the AZ statute.
I am thinking that maybe a worded it incorrectly.
In thinking about it, that is the "Burglary" statute.

For trespassing, exclude the "with an intent to commit a crime".

But with that said, if you trespass on property to poach, that would fall under the burglary statute. 3 felonies.

My mistake.
Thanks

That sounds more like it. Not trying to pick a fight kmcintosh78. Its just that with this legal stuff the wording is really really really important. Wouldn't want someone to read this and get the wrong idea.
 
Originally Posted By: kylesredapple
Doing this, in my opinion, is one fast way to end up dead, or in jail. This attitude floats around every hunting forum I have come across and I cannot for the life of me understand why you would promote this? What is wrong with you? The last thing people need to do is provoke violence. These people are out breaking the law, they don't give a rat about your rules, signs or your attitude. You will wind up being the villian, not the victim.

Gotta chime in here. kylesredapple is 100% correct. There are some very severe repercussions to the use of deadly force, even when justified. A few things to be aware of.

If you kill someone, even lawfully, there is no mechanism to be declared innocent. While you may have been justified, and the current law enforcement decided not to prosecute, future law enforcement may bring the case back. There is no statute of limitations on murder.

Using deadly force to protect game, your land, anything other than your life or the life of another human is a sure fire way to get time in prison. Period. Personally, I am not willing to use deadly force to protect a stranger unless the threat will likely become immediate to me or my family. Sorry, I just don't like people enough to risk my future or the future of my loved ones. If you confront someone and then use deadly force you will be viewed as the aggressor in the situation. Some states have laws saying you may use deadly force to protect your land. I wouldn't want to rely on them.

What these laws don't consider is the psychological impact of taking a human life. It's easy to joke and fantasize about killing a person. It another thing completely to do it.

Finally, while there are numerous other things to consider perhaps one of the greatest should be what you've posted on the internet. A thorough investigation will find these posts and guess what. YOU HAVE JUST SHOWN INTENT. Most places consider that first degree murder. That's life in prison if your lucky.

This is why most states require a class prior to being issued a concealed carry permit. Not because they are trying to track people who have them. Because people will not think things through without being forced to do so.
 
Originally Posted By: dtm6582Originally Posted By: kylesredapple
Doing this, in my opinion, is one fast way to end up dead, or in jail. This attitude floats around every hunting forum I have come across and I cannot for the life of me understand why you would promote this? What is wrong with you? The last thing people need to do is provoke violence. These people are out breaking the law, they don't give a rat about your rules, signs or your attitude. You will wind up being the villian, not the victim.

Gotta chime in here. kylesredapple is 100% correct. There are some very severe repercussions to the use of deadly force, even when justified. A few things to be aware of.

If you kill someone, even lawfully, there is no mechanism to be declared innocent. While you may have been justified, and the current law enforcement decided not to prosecute, future law enforcement may bring the case back. There is no statute of limitations on murder.

Using deadly force to protect game, your land, anything other than your life or the life of another human is a sure fire way to get time in prison. Period. Personally, I am not willing to use deadly force to protect a stranger unless the threat will likely become immediate to me or my family. Sorry, I just don't like people enough to risk my future or the future of my loved ones. If you confront someone and then use deadly force you will be viewed as the aggressor in the situation. Some states have laws saying you may use deadly force to protect your land. I wouldn't want to rely on them.

What these laws don't consider is the psychological impact of taking a human life. It's easy to joke and fantasize about killing a person. It another thing completely to do it.

Finally, while there are numerous other things to consider perhaps one of the greatest should be what you've posted on the internet. A thorough investigation will find these posts and guess what. YOU HAVE JUST SHOWN INTENT. Most places consider that first degree murder. That's life in prison if your lucky.

This is why most states require a class prior to being issued a concealed carry permit. Not because they are trying to track people who have them. Because people will not think things through without being forced to do so.

I like how texas handles people who trespass, if the person comes on your property after dark and shows an intent to harm anyone or steal anything, you can legally shoot them dead, problem solved.
 
The poaching is wrong.

However, this whole trespassing bit seams to be incorrect. IF state law requires landowners to post no trespassing signs then why does the burden fall on just the hunter? Ethical responsibility and legal responsibility are two very different things. If you dont want people, with no intention of poaching, walking your land then the law requires signs. Utah does not put the burden on the hunter/hiker, rather the land owner.
 
Originally Posted By: steve garrettOriginally Posted By: dtm6582Originally Posted By: kylesredapple
Doing this, in my opinion, is one fast way to end up dead, or in jail. This attitude floats around every hunting forum I have come across and I cannot for the life of me understand why you would promote this? What is wrong with you? The last thing people need to do is provoke violence. These people are out breaking the law, they don't give a rat about your rules, signs or your attitude. You will wind up being the villian, not the victim.

Gotta chime in here. kylesredapple is 100% correct. There are some very severe repercussions to the use of deadly force, even when justified. A few things to be aware of.

If you kill someone, even lawfully, there is no mechanism to be declared innocent. While you may have been justified, and the current law enforcement decided not to prosecute, future law enforcement may bring the case back. There is no statute of limitations on murder.

Using deadly force to protect game, your land, anything other than your life or the life of another human is a sure fire way to get time in prison. Period. Personally, I am not willing to use deadly force to protect a stranger unless the threat will likely become immediate to me or my family. Sorry, I just don't like people enough to risk my future or the future of my loved ones. If you confront someone and then use deadly force you will be viewed as the aggressor in the situation. Some states have laws saying you may use deadly force to protect your land. I wouldn't want to rely on them.

What these laws don't consider is the psychological impact of taking a human life. It's easy to joke and fantasize about killing a person. It another thing completely to do it.

Finally, while there are numerous other things to consider perhaps one of the greatest should be what you've posted on the internet. A thorough investigation will find these posts and guess what. YOU HAVE JUST SHOWN INTENT. Most places consider that first degree murder. That's life in prison if your lucky.

This is why most states require a class prior to being issued a concealed carry permit. Not because they are trying to track people who have them. Because people will not think things through without being forced to do so.

I like how texas handles people who trespass, if the person comes on your property after dark and shows an intent to harm anyone or steal anything, you can legally shoot them dead, problem solved.

Showing intent and proving intent are very different.
 
I knew I should have deleted this subscription

So your saying it's OK when the trespassers/poacher/whatever walks right past the signs or tears the sign off it is still the landowners fault

RIGHT GOT IT

The ethics of some are starting to show and not for the better.

Again it comes down to knowing where you are if you don't know that you are in the wrong same as the "irresponsible" land owner.

My Dad taught me

"If it ain't yours don't touch it" and "If you don't know if it's yours, then it ain't yours don't touch it"

The info is out there you are showing ignorance by not obtaining it.
 


Probe continues into Red Lion man's shooting death
Frank Shaffer's firearms permit was withdrawn once because of a road-rage incident, court records show.
By MIKE HOOVER
Daily Record/Sunday News
Updated: 11/25/2009 04:24:13 PM EST

After confronting a group of bear hunters over trespassing, a Red Lion man was shot and killed, and another man was wounded Tuesday in Jefferson County.

Frank N. Shaffer, 63, was upset that a group of local hunters wandered onto his family's property in Beaver Township, said Trooper Bruce Morris.

The argument escalated into gunfire, which led to Shaffer's death, and Paul H. Plyler, 23, of Summerville, getting shot once and ending up in the hospital, according to police.

Investigators are sorting through who fired first and the events which led up the shootout, Morris said. Once complete, the investigation will be turned over to the Jefferson County District Attorney's Office, which will determine whether to file charges.

"He (Shaffer) was apparently upset because they came onto this property, and things escalated into the OK Corral," Morris said.

Investigators believe at least four shots were fired between Shaffer and Plyler.

The shooting took place on Patton Road (Route 331) in a very remote part of southeastern Jefferson County. The rolling farmland and woods are sparsely populated but known as a popular hunting area for deer, bear and other wildlife. The shooting occurred about 15 miles from Punxsutawney and about 60 miles northeast of Pittsburgh.

A person who answered Shaffer's home phone in Red Lion declined comment before hanging up.

Shaffer, a real estate appraiser, was involved in a previous exchange involving a firearm.
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He was charged with simple assault, disorderly conduct, harassment and reckless endangerment after an Aug. 24, 2006, exchange with a truck driver on Interstate 83.

The trucker, William Coates, pleaded guilty to disorderly conduct, but the charges were dropped against Shaffer when Coates failed to show up at a preliminary hearing.

Shaffer and Coates each claimed to state police that the other cut him off, according to court records. Shaffer pulled off the highway to check for damages after alleging Coates threw stones at his car. While there, Shaffer claimed he had to pull a gun on Coates, who was swearing and threatening to kill him.

Shaffer sued York County and then-Sheriff Bill Hose in federal court, alleging Hose refused to reinstate his firearms permit, saying, "I find that you are not the type of individual who should be permitted to have a firearms license," according to the suit. The case is pending.

On Dec. 28, 2008, York County Judge Richard Renn ordered Hose to return the permit.

Hose eventually issued a new permit which stamped over Shaffer's picture "Returned by Order of the Court." Shaffer in the federal lawsuit alleges Hose denied his Second Amendment right to bear arms.

Shaffer's death came on the second day of a three-day bear hunting season.

In his 10-year experience at the Pennsylvania Game Commission, agency spokesman Jerry Feaser said, he has never heard of a property owner having a shootout with another hunter over trespassing.

Feaser said the death is tragic and the allegations are unfortunate. As deer season quickly approaches, Feaser said hunters and land owners should take heed to what happened.

"We tell everyone that a hunting license is not a license to trespass. You need to gain the landowner's permission before going afield, and don't wait until the day before the season to start seeking permission.

"If you do not have permission of the landowner, do not enter the property. Be respectful of the landowner," Feaser said.

Trespassers are a huge problem but not worth my life. If you think you are going to manhandle these types of people please be aware of the consequences of your own actions.
 
Ignorance is not a defense for breaking the law. Never has been, never should be.
If you don't know where you are, then you are lost and should not be hunting that area.
If you are confronted by an armed person, stating it is their land. Sorry goes a long way, and walk back slowly stating you are leaving.

Doom to those that bring the wrath upon themselves.
 
Showing intent and proving intent are two very different things, true. But if you've been involved in a shooting you NEED to be able to prove that you did everything possible to mitigate the situation. I'm not saying we can't find situations where a questionable defense situation was upheld. I'm saying that when you take a person's life you risk your own.

There was a road rage case in AZ a couple years ago. The gentleman who fired in self defense got 8 years. The situation seemed defensive to me, but he got an aggressive prosecutor. Same thing can happen in Texas. Remember guys, just because a place has a publicized reputation doesn't mean it will hold true for you. I bet five minutes of research could find self defense cases in Texas that resulted in the landowners arrest.

As for these trespass issues, i'm extremely cautious about where I hunt. I will say though that in AZ there are some places where State Trust land and private property alternate. If the areas are not properly marked and thoroughly posted it would be very easy to end up on private property. That's why the law makes it the land owners responsibility to post their land. An above post talks about people removing the signs. That's obviously not ok. But what if someone earlier removed the signs and I go walking along into this land by mistake. To me (and according to the law), that land is now unposted. If you were to confront me with a firearm at that point and use it to protect your property, all things being equal you'd go to jail, assuming I didn't shoot you first.

The point, gentlemen, is that you should not use deadly force to protect your property even if it is legal. You should use it only to protect your life. If your really worried about someone trespassing call the police. If they are not immediate threat to life and limb then don't make them into that. This really isn't rocket science.
 
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