JLDakota: Whether the 50k total is true or not, I choose to be of the opinion that the "possibilty" exists because the population densities in the 30's and 40's were unlike anything we have seen in the decades since.
As you know, an area will only support a certain number of coyotes based on food, water, habitat, and human disturbance. Coyotes cannot stockpile without disease eventually knocking them back. Whether past or present, those basic coyote survival rules haven't changed.
I would say most of the areas outside of the coyote population control areas (sheep areas) have as high of coyote densities now as there ever was. The exception would be where mange has set in and knocked them back in recent years like it always has and probably always will.
JLDakota: The "depression era" allowed the coyote population to grow unchecked as the only means of control were the government hunters and some bounty programs.
But nature will never allow the population in any given area to exceed the carrying capacity without disease knocking them back. You have coyote population control areas around livestock and you have coyote populations outside of these areas. Past or present is not the issue because we are currently exceeding the carrying capacity in many areas as evidenced by mange and parvo.
Those areas that were not controlled year round will only have the number of coyotes that the area will support both then and now. If you visit with the older generation of ranchers that can make objective comparisons of population then and now will tell you that there are as many coyotes now as there was then in most areas that have not been hit by mange or parvo.
JLDakota: The 40's brought the "war", rationing of gas and shells and a low inventory of steel traps. The coyote had a free reign. We may have more coyotes today, but they are spread over a much larger area and less concentrated, therefore more difficult to take.
Less concentrated?? I beg to differ. Maybe in some cases but that certainly is not the case overall currently in the WYO, MT, SD, ND, or NE. Coyote densities in many areas are currently at their peak. Talk to ADC pilots who know more about coyote population densities than anyone you could find. They hunt whole states year after year and can make objective comparisons on populations in the last 30 years. Prior to that, the rules of the game haven't changed and the old timers who lived during that era will confirm this.
JLDakota: As you know, there were no rules back then for those that persued the coyote and no time checks. Getters and strychnine drop baits, the steel trap, seasonal denning and coyotes called to the rifle were preferred methods used to varying degrees by all ADC men depending on their proficiency with each method.
That is true, they did have less restraints. I will certainly give you that one. Compound 1080 was also used heavily during part of this era and many of those coyotes were never found. Where 1080 was used, few were left for cyanide guns or other methods. Very few were also recovered for their scalps without extensive searching. Many coyotes made it a long ways before they expired.
JLDakota: Although, Vern was known as King of the Denners,
No, Vern was labeled the "king of the denners" by O'Gorman. I have never heard his piers (SP?) call him that even though he may have been worthy of the title. There were many men back then that were just as accomplished in all aspects of ADC work but never had their names in print or someone to create noteriety for them.
JLDakota: he, by his own admission in 30's ran as many as 1400 getters along with as many as 200 traps at the same time.
I don't doubt that at all.
JLDakota: Those that are interested in the true numbers of the old time "wolfers" should contact Craig O'Gorman in Broadas,Mt. He has spent a lifetime researching everything there is to know about coyotes and those who succeeded in taking them in large numbers.
Those who are interested in the true numbers should obtain copies of the old USF&WS reports that were submitted by the men themselves when they still had to turn in coyote scalps to prove themselves. That is where some of O'Gorman's numbers probably originated.
JLDakota: His "Hoofbeats of a Wolfer" among many other things, contains facts, numbers and details on many of the old ADC guys you have heard of in conversations. Those of you who know O'Gorman, know he's a numbers guy.
Yes, Hoofbeats is a good book. I took trapping instructions back in 1983 from Craig and it was probably one of the best trapping investments I ever made. I learned a lot from Craig O'Gorman. Craig is very knowledgeable about coyotes and coyote trapping and is without question the hardest working coyote trapper I ever met. With that said, I have met many others with just as much collective coyote knowledge and many just as proficient with all control methods. Particularly calling. None I have met worked any harder.
JLDakota: He has put in print that Vern took 50,000 and "he does know and understand what those numbers mean" and what it took to get them. He and Vern were very close friends and Craig would be the last person to "exaggerate Vern's expertise and abilities to the point of rediculous by blowing numbers out of realistic proportion to discredit the good man in the process".
I don't think Craig exaggerated those numbers, I think he reported them as they were reported to him. He certainly didn't attempt to discredit him but rather to give him the credit that he was due. Either way, I believe those numbers are misleading.
JL, the numbers I was privy to were submitted by Vern Dorn himself in his monthly reports. That was back when they still had to furnish scalps. To make up for the snapshot in time that I saw and the coyote numbers he was taking in his later years, he would have had to have had many 2000 coyote years. Doubtful at best!
If you will agree that the coyote populations in many areas are as high today as they were back then, then lets look at the logistics of 50K coyotes. The best annual takes that are recorded currently in SD and surrounding states, by some of the best in the game IN HIGH POPULATION AREAS, are upwards of 700 annually. 1/3 of those would be by aerial hunting. Under the best of weather circumstances one could take 1000 coyotes on the ground with a lot of hard work and a lot of effort.
That would be considering the better transportation, better equipment, and POSSIBLY more coyote knowledge that we have today. Consider that same effort for 50 straight years with the equipment and transportation that they had back then.
If anyone gets close to 50,000 coyotes in a lifetime, it would probably be Craig O'Gorman himself but I don't think even Craig can kill 1000 coyotes a year for 50 years.
JLDakota: At my age I've learned to not believe everything I read, thank you, but have learned instead to place more importance on those things that reference facts, data and details when formulating my opinions.
What could be more credible than the numbers Vern himself reported to the USF&WS back in the era of scalps?
JLDakota: By the way, your numbers for Pud for the month and year are close but those referenced record numbers for the month were with steel trap only (no getters)and matched by no one still to this date. (per O'Gorman)
I wish I could find that report. You may be right but I am fairly certain that it was an Cyanide gun take. If I can find it I will report it.
I am not trying to discredit Vern, make you look bad, or have any axe to grind with anyone. I just understand these numbers and what it would require to kill 50,000 coyotes in a lifetime. You will have to come up with something better than you have that to convince me that it can be done.
Respectfully, Wiley E
[This message has been edited by Wiley E (edited 06-06-2001).]