where to zero for coyote's.

you know what guy's lot's "o" good information has been passed around here..& i thank you...what got me to thinking is when i "zero" a rifle..all i think is where am i @ 100 yard's..to give an example i just mounted two scope's from different rifle's to..two..new rifle's...both bore-sighted by my friend's @ the local gunshop..the 1st rifle a 280 remington..was nut's on @ 25 yard's..i knew it would be high @ 100 yard's..so knowing this i cranked her down..i think 24 click's..sure enough 1" low @ 100...the next speciman was a 257 robert's..this panned out @ about 2" high @ 25..i left it alone & fired two shot's @ 100...i wasn't on paper..i cranked her down about 20 click's i didn't write it down..fired two more & 6" high..cranked down another 20-25 click's & 1 1/2" high @ 100..my point in all this..is..it seem's to me there is a pretty significant tragectory difference in short yardage situation's..
 
I use a target (vitals) size of 4" to determine MPBR on all my varmint rifles. That's 2" above line of sight and 2" below. So the rifles are zeroed such that the bullet does not rise more than 2" above line of sight (wich usually happens pretty close to 150 yards). Wherever the bullet then drops to 2" below line of sight is then considered the "MPBR" (maximum point blank range).

Using the rifle I use the most for coyote hunting as an example (a .17 caliber wildcat), the MPBR is 325 yards. So it is zeroed to be 1.6" high at 100 yards, dead on at 280 yards and 2" low at 325 yards. I use the same point of aim for every shot, from as close as I can get them, out to 300+ yards. The rifle I use next most on coyotes (a .20 caliber wildcat) is even flatter than that. Works for me. Note, though, that not many rifles shoot that flat. Certainly not anything like a .223.

Knock'em, there is no doubt that those Eastern coyotes are on average larger than their Western cousins. I think you might be surprised at how many coyotes at around 40 lb's I do kill, though. I skin probably 10 coyotes every year over 37 pounds, and at least one or two every year that go an honest 40 or more. The largest I've personally killed was a 44 pounder, but I've skinned several that were larger, one my partner killed (with my .17 Mach IV) was only a pound shy of 50, at 49 pounds. Most of these have been killed in Utah.

Two seasons ago, I measured the side profile chest depth of as many coyotes as I could. I was bouncing around an idea in my head for a custom scope reticle that would employ a super fast subtension ranging/aiming system for coyotes. So I needed to know the actual size (depth) of a coyotes chest. I was interested in the "visual" depth, as in what you see through the scope - hair and all. I'd have to dig up all the notes I took to give really accurate numbers, but I do remember that only the very biggest coyotes I measured that year (40 pounders) went 12" deep. But again, that was from the tips of the guard hairs to the tips of the belly hairs. I didn't measure them after skinning. But I don't think even the ones that went 40 pounds were more than 8" deep in the chest with the hair off? I think the average was probably closer to 6" deep. I could be wrong about that, obviously, since I didn't actually measure them skinned. But, I did measure and weigh a bunch of them before skinning. I'd have to say my best guess, is that even your biggest 50 pounders, probably don't go more than 9" deep? Just rambling here I suppose, no real point I'm trying to make, other than I suspect I might have a better handle on how big your coyotes are, than you think I do?

- DAA
 
It all depends on where you live and the calling distance for your shots. In my home area, 100 yd zero is all you need. Out West where shots can be long it is best to work on the idea that DAA has outlined. Takes the guess work out of it.
 
Dave,

If you can give me the muzzle velocity of the load your using, the type of bullet, and its ballistic coefficient, I can plug the numbers into Sierra's Infinity ballistic program, and give you the sight in at 100 yards for a MPBR for the average coyote vital size of 4". That way you can sight the gun in so high at 100 yards and know you will never be more than 2 inches above or below line of sight out to your MPBR. In other words, you could hold dead on out to whatever the software says is your MPBR and still hit the coyote in the kill zone.

Also, if you have a particular distance you would like to zero the gun for I could also use the software to give you the 100 yard sight in to put you dead on at whatever distance you choose.

The software isn't perfect as there are many variables that account for a bullets trajectory, but it will get you real close.

Let me know if you want me to crunch the numbers. It will only take a few minutes.

Mark
 
sdcoyotecaller..thank's for the offer..to be honest i'm not much of a "puter" type of guy..i will give an example 22/250..33.1 grains' of varget shooting a hornady 60 grain soft point..i don't use a cronagraph..not yet anyway..according to hornady's information it would put me around 3400..my guess would be below that figure as my barrel is 22" instead of 26" which was there example..
 
Therein lies the difference. The tools used will determine the path taken to get the job done.

Comparatively speaking, a 55gr out of a .223 is not terribly flat shooting. All the more reason for a closer scope zero distance and know bullet drop beyond that if/when it is actuallly needed to make a shot. Which again, is a rarity.

Using MBPR zero of 258 yds for a 5" vital zone with that load will get a MBPR of right at 300 yds. However, with that 258yd zero, bullet impact is over 3" high at 100 yds. Definitely not practical when targeting a 5" vital zone. I'd rather the former scenario with that setup and being 1.8" high @ 100. Real easy to hold a tad low at such a predictable distance. Just like with a bowsight pin...

I'd argue that an eastern coyote's build is somewhat more "stocky", i.e. deepr in the chest, than it's western cousins, but I'm no wildlife biologist. Possibily due to the fact that whitetailed deer have become a major prey item and increased musculature aids in their predation? The term "brush wolf" is used by some when describing these big S.O.B.s.

With respect, I was attempting to correct your inaccurate statement about holding off of fur to compensate for 7" bullet drop @ 300yds to get a vital hit on a coyote.

Indeed holding the horizontal crosshair parallel across the back of a big coyote will put your bullet right in his boiler in that scenario. Hence the photo to support that claim.
For a furred up winter coyote, figure 2" of fur then 5" of body mass will = a DEAD DOG. Doesn't have to be a 40+lber either.

Either way, knowing your bullet's trajectory past your rifle zero, or MPBR, can only help you to harvest more game.

Live target sizes are simply too static for accurate, reliable, precision ranging via reticle stadia. If it were only that easy....

Seems like this discussion touches upon a few of the many facets of competent marksmanship in the field. I'm always open to learning from others.

EDIT:
DAA, I just ordered your 3 DVD set...


Good shootin'
 
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I use the same rifle for ground squirrels, rabbits, and coyotes with the same bullet. 223 40gr Vmax ~3700 fps.

For ground squirrels (mostly in the field) I use a 150 yard zero because from 25-175 yards I'm +/- a half inch. Works good for me because sometimes the squirrels are down on all 4, other times all I can see is a head. I need pinpoint accuracy for my "typical" shooting distances.

After 150 yards I prefer to use my rangefinder and Nikon tactical scope knobs along with a ballistic chart from eskimo.com. The chart is taped to my stock. If I don't have time to use the rangefinder on a longer shot, I can just guess it's at say 300 yards and make the scope adjustment real quick.

For coyote hunting I usually leave the scope zero'ed at 150 yards because I rarely get a shot past 200 yards. However, if I'm setting up on a stand with a long field of fire, I can always turn my scope knobs to set it for whatever "zero" I want. Changing from a 150 yard zero to a 250 yard zero is just a matter of a few clicks and then I don't have to worry about holding over at all. It's all in the knobs.

Works for me.
IMG_2436b.jpg

CoyoteDunlap07.jpg
 
Dave, my 243 shooting an 85 grain bullet @ roughly 2900 fps is about 1 inch low at 25 and hits zero at 100 if that helps. I use fairly low rings. One inch low at 25 yards will put you close at 100.

I can still aim right on at 150 (just a bit low), but think I'm hitting 3 or four inches low at 200 the few times I've shot my coyotes sillouettes that far.

So the 100 yard zero will be good if you shoot close. If you do plan on big shooting, I'd scope up and zero as folks have outlined above.
 
I am going back to a 100 yard zero this year. I tried 150 and 200, but it seems more un-natural (for me) to hold UNder on a coyote called in close, than it does to hold a tad OVer on one that is out there 200 to 250.
 
I just went with the BallisticPlex. Haven't tried it yet, but I'm curious to see how close the marks actually work out.

peace.
unloaded
 
Some great info on here! It is great to hear everyones views and opinions /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Thanks,
Ty
 
John in Ca...i agree i guess that's what i'm trying to say..it seem's to me a 100..to..200 yard zero..put's a guy low on close coyote's..it's close coyote's that i usaully miss..[not to call anybody out..or anything like that..] i wonder how many guy's zero @ 200 yard's..& really do that ?? what i mean is is everyone using a chart ?? or program ?? or really shooting @ 200 yard's..thank's..
 
Dave,
My POI (point of impact) vs. POA (point of aim) in the above setup was less than 1" @ 50yds with a 200 yd zero.

So if I missed a coyote @ 50 yds,it would be because I REALLY MISSED that coyote!

for reference...
 
Well said DAA. I live in Idaho and often you'll see coyotes well past 400 yards. How silly not to use a sight in system that doesn't make use of those flat shooting cartridges.
 
Quote:
Using MBPR zero of 258 yds for a 5" vital zone with that load will get a MBPR of right at 300 yds. However, with that 258yd zero, bullet impact is over 3" high at 100 yds. Definitely not practical when targeting a 5" vital zone. I'd rather the former scenario with that setup and



For that load, I agree. For any load, actually - I don't ever want more than a 2" rise above line of sight in a varmint rig. That's why I mentioned earlier that your 200 yard zero is really just about perfect, for that particular load. That's purely personal preference though.


Quote:


I'd argue that an eastern coyote's build is somewhat more "stocky", i.e. deepr in the chest, than it's western cousins, but I'm no wildlife biologist.



Probably so. I've never killed or skinned anything but these skinny Western coyotes, so I surely couldn't say otherwise.

Quote:
With respect, I was attempting to correct your inaccurate statement about holding off of fur to compensate for 7" bullet drop @ 300yds to get a vital hit on a coyote.



I'll have to give you the credit for knowing your larger coyotes better than I possibly could. On these Western buggers, you really do need to hold over for a 7" drop though. I don't think most of them have more than 6" of chest.

Quote:
Live target sizes are simply too static for accurate, reliable, precision ranging via reticle stadia. If it were only that easy....



I agree completely with that. My reticle idea doesn't employ stadia though, or even give "precision" ranging. It's more like an instant check system to see if a coyote is within my MPBR or not. Like an instant "doesn't need hold over/does need hold over" check. If I can work the final bugs out of it, it would let me determine instantly if a coyote needs any holdover or not, while simultaneously providing holdover aiming points. By "simultaneously", I mean really simultaneous - no moving from ranging element to aiming element, the system I had in mind would make them one and the same. The whole thing would be totally custom, for my rifle and my loads etc. I never did get the design completely worked out to my satisfaction though (it would be easier to design for a less flat shooting cartridge!), and can't afford to do it any time soon anyway. So the whole thing has been back burnered and at this point, I kind of doubt I'll ever actually get it done. Besides, the brutal truth of the matter is, I rarely shoot at coyotes beyond my MPBR anyway, and am probably going to miss most of them even with a fancy-schmancy scope reticle...

Quote:
DAA, I just ordered your 3 DVD set...






Well... I hope you aren't too disapointed in them. There isn't a lot of coyote hunting on the first one, and none on the third. We do offer an unconditional money back guarantee though (don't even send them back, just email to say you want your money back), just in case.

- DAA
 
DAA,
I'd suspect that one of the readily available ballistic type reticle scopes can be tweaked via mag setting to account for a target size of your choosing. A quick test at given yardage with a yard stick and a log for the info could help alot if trying already available reticles.
Finding one tailored to your needs poses a dilemma. Devising a custom reticle based to your specific rig & load combo would be the cat's meow! I pondered idea of using a FFP reticle so as not to be at the mercy of a specific magnification setting while ranging a target via reticle subtension. But the size of target remains a variable in the equation. And price point of front focal plane glass is somewhat of a hindrance as well...

You are spot on, hitting anything at over 300yds really becomes a challenge. Getting the job done beyond that proves to be an interesting & enjoyable challenge to tackle. There are more than a few guys here that find this kind of stuff fascinating.

As for the videos...
Heck, I didn't even know they were on the market until this dialog exchange w/you. Admittedly, I'm a hunting video wh**re and pretty sure I'll enjoy the heck out of them!

Regards,
Fred
 
DAA,
If you don't mind, I'd be interested in those calculations for my rifle.
204 Encore Prohunter, 28" Barrel
32 gr. V-max @ 4000 fps, B.C.=.210
 
Happy to. I don't have all the information needed for the most accurate inputs, but just having BC and velocity is really enough to get pretty darn close.

I came up with a MPBR of 296 yards, using a 257 yard zero. That would be 1.5" high at 100 yards.

I just used standard 1.5" site height, standard atmosphere etc.

I do have several good programs installed on my computer for playing with this stuff. But, JBM has some EXCELLENT calculators available to use free. Click here for the JBM ballistics calculators. Using the JBM calculators, you can fine tune the results by inputting some of your unique parameters.

For getting MPBR, use the "Trajectories" calculator. Towards the bottom of the input screen is "Vital Zone Radius". I use 2" for this. After getting the results of the first run, you'll see the MPBR and the zero needed for it. Just plug in that zero range and run the numbers again to see where you need to be hitting at 100.

For most common setups these days, you'll usually end up needing to be somewhere pretty close to 1.5" high at 100 for MPBR on a 2" target.

- DAA
 
You really should zero your hunting rifle at the actual yardage instead of guestimating 1" high at 100 yards. Otherwise it's nearly impossible to tell if your group is centered exactly 1" high, or is it really 1.3" high? Or maybe it's .8" high? It makes a difference down range.

My 223 is supposed to be 0.3" high at 100 yards for a 150 yard zero. Darned if I could ever really tell whether my 3/4" 5-shot group is really 0.3" high or is it 0.5" high or maybe it's only 0.1" high? Pretty hard to tell the difference, and then do it consistently.
 


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