Which 6mm for an AR15 Platform?
- Thread starter shelton573
- Start date
Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOG6mmDTI is an option from Dtech. I returned two BHW 6x6.8 barrels and got a Shilen 6mmDTI barrel instead. Very happy now.
Ritch's Precision Guns has a new barrel supplier. They dont use BHW anymore. I got my 6x6.8 from Ritch in 8 weeks and it shoots lights out.
Ritch's Precision Guns has a new barrel supplier. They dont use BHW anymore. I got my 6x6.8 from Ritch in 8 weeks and it shoots lights out.
DiRTY DOG
Well-known member
Originally Posted By: dozer_xj
Ritch's Precision Guns has a new barrel supplier. They dont use BHW anymore. I got my 6x6.8 from Ritch in 8 weeks and it shoots lights out.
Your last report said 3 different loads were all shooting about .95" groups. I wouldn't call that "lights out" performance. Is it shooting better now?
Ritch's Precision Guns has a new barrel supplier. They dont use BHW anymore. I got my 6x6.8 from Ritch in 8 weeks and it shoots lights out.
Your last report said 3 different loads were all shooting about .95" groups. I wouldn't call that "lights out" performance. Is it shooting better now?
Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOGOriginally Posted By: dozer_xj
Ritch's Precision Guns has a new barrel supplier. They dont use BHW anymore. I got my 6x6.8 from Ritch in 8 weeks and it shoots lights out.
Your last report said 3 different loads were all shooting about .95" groups. I wouldn't call that "lights out" performance. Is it shooting better now?
I have shot 0.5 moa groups with the 75s. I have a picture I can try to get on here. I don't have any picture hosting accounts. [beeep] of a time to be alive when sub MOA ar15 put together in a basement out of cheap parts and a nice barrel isn't impressive or "lights out." I also stated in my reports I have shot better but didn't measures.
Ritch's Precision Guns has a new barrel supplier. They dont use BHW anymore. I got my 6x6.8 from Ritch in 8 weeks and it shoots lights out.
Your last report said 3 different loads were all shooting about .95" groups. I wouldn't call that "lights out" performance. Is it shooting better now?
I have shot 0.5 moa groups with the 75s. I have a picture I can try to get on here. I don't have any picture hosting accounts. [beeep] of a time to be alive when sub MOA ar15 put together in a basement out of cheap parts and a nice barrel isn't impressive or "lights out." I also stated in my reports I have shot better but didn't measures.
dtech
New member
Originally Posted By: shelton573I typically stick to putting together bolt action rifles, but I put together my first AR in 223 wylde this year and they are pretty dang fun to shoot. I started reading about 6mm ARs and thought I would ask here what you guys prefer. It would be for coyotes mainly and maybe steel target plinking occasionally. Is there a chambering specifically that you recommend for being able to run a bit heavier bullet as well? Might not be a bad little gun to have around for a low recoil deer rifle for a kid. Any info is much appreciated!
The 6x45 is an awesome cartridge. It’s an old bench-rest round and is simply a .223 Remington necked-up to 6mm. You get about 30% more energy than the .223, and the brass is all but free.
If you want more energy, the 6mm DTI is an option. I have taken everything from prairie dogs to nice Northern White tail with both. The DTI however will extend your range. It has significantly more energy than the 6x45.
There are misconceptions out there that the DTI line needs to be “fire-formed” but that is simply not the truth. One pass through the full-length sizing die, and load it!
The 6x45 is an awesome cartridge. It’s an old bench-rest round and is simply a .223 Remington necked-up to 6mm. You get about 30% more energy than the .223, and the brass is all but free.
If you want more energy, the 6mm DTI is an option. I have taken everything from prairie dogs to nice Northern White tail with both. The DTI however will extend your range. It has significantly more energy than the 6x45.
There are misconceptions out there that the DTI line needs to be “fire-formed” but that is simply not the truth. One pass through the full-length sizing die, and load it!
dtech
New member
Originally Posted By: R JohnsonSo let me get this straight. You don’t push the shoulder back like the WOA and it ends up at 30* after firing. So what do you call it if it’s not fire formed?
No, we don’t push the shoulder back. The shoulder moves forward during the first firing. The difference in volume change is less than firing any factory new load in a SAAMI camber. I have shot lots of loads with new and fired brass and have not yet seen a load that needed to be reduced because it was virgin brass.
You have to remember that I played with the 6x6.8 before I moved the shoulder. If I didn’t think it was a good idea, I would still be chambering the 6x6.8. Don’t get me wrong; there was and is nothing wrong with the 6x6.8, but I got better preference when I changed the shoulder.
The first two barrels I did were both select-match Shilen barrels. One in a 12 twist, one in a 10 twist. I shot the 10 twist extensively. Then I took the same barrels, and when I received my DTI reamer, moved the shoulder forward and started over. I was able to get TRUE dude-by/side comparisons, and where the results were not earth-shaking, it was clearly worth doing.
Let’s try and put the “firforming” myth behind us now....
No, we don’t push the shoulder back. The shoulder moves forward during the first firing. The difference in volume change is less than firing any factory new load in a SAAMI camber. I have shot lots of loads with new and fired brass and have not yet seen a load that needed to be reduced because it was virgin brass.
You have to remember that I played with the 6x6.8 before I moved the shoulder. If I didn’t think it was a good idea, I would still be chambering the 6x6.8. Don’t get me wrong; there was and is nothing wrong with the 6x6.8, but I got better preference when I changed the shoulder.
The first two barrels I did were both select-match Shilen barrels. One in a 12 twist, one in a 10 twist. I shot the 10 twist extensively. Then I took the same barrels, and when I received my DTI reamer, moved the shoulder forward and started over. I was able to get TRUE dude-by/side comparisons, and where the results were not earth-shaking, it was clearly worth doing.
Let’s try and put the “firforming” myth behind us now....
R Johnson
New member
Call it what you want. You can’t make a case with your dies without firing it.
The only difference between the true 6.8 and your 30* shoulder is your proprietary dies. There is no difference in prefomance so what other reason is there to move the shoulder? I’ve shot both side by side and there is NO difference.
So let’s just call it what it really is. A 6.8 case with a fire formed 30* shoulder.
The only difference between the true 6.8 and your 30* shoulder is your proprietary dies. There is no difference in prefomance so what other reason is there to move the shoulder? I’ve shot both side by side and there is NO difference.
So let’s just call it what it really is. A 6.8 case with a fire formed 30* shoulder.
dtech
New member
Originally Posted By: R JohnsonCall it what you want. You can’t make a case with your dies without firing it.
The only difference between the true 6.8 and your 30* shoulder is your proprietary dies. There is no difference in prefomance so what other reason is there to move the shoulder? I’ve shot both side by side and there is NO difference.
So let’s just call it what it really is. A 6.8 case with a fire formed 30* shoulder.
You can call it what ever you want. The fact remains that in 09’ I was shooting the 6x6.8 and shortly thereafter I converted the two original barrels over to DTI. There was and is better performance. Is it worth doubling the cost? No, but it was worth doing in my opinion. If you had taken two barrels and done what I did, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. And until you do, I can’t really put any real faith in your argument.
The only difference between the true 6.8 and your 30* shoulder is your proprietary dies. There is no difference in prefomance so what other reason is there to move the shoulder? I’ve shot both side by side and there is NO difference.
So let’s just call it what it really is. A 6.8 case with a fire formed 30* shoulder.
You can call it what ever you want. The fact remains that in 09’ I was shooting the 6x6.8 and shortly thereafter I converted the two original barrels over to DTI. There was and is better performance. Is it worth doubling the cost? No, but it was worth doing in my opinion. If you had taken two barrels and done what I did, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. And until you do, I can’t really put any real faith in your argument.
DiRTY DOG
Well-known member
Barrel quality and availability is a factor to consider. 6DTIs are Shilen match/ultra match. Who is making decent 6x6.8 barrels?
Proprietary (Hornady Custom) 6DTI dies is also a moot point since a lot of 6x6.8 shooters would rather have a "proprietary" custom die set anyways. Consider the popularity of the recent Hornady 6x6.8 die group buy and prior demand from CH4D. They are only a few bucks more than a bushing die and seater. How many 6x6.8 shooters with bushing dies also purchased custom Hornady or CH4D dies, and doesn't that mean they actually spent a lot more?
Proprietary (Hornady Custom) 6DTI dies is also a moot point since a lot of 6x6.8 shooters would rather have a "proprietary" custom die set anyways. Consider the popularity of the recent Hornady 6x6.8 die group buy and prior demand from CH4D. They are only a few bucks more than a bushing die and seater. How many 6x6.8 shooters with bushing dies also purchased custom Hornady or CH4D dies, and doesn't that mean they actually spent a lot more?
Here are my neutral thoughts on this...
I own and shoot a6x6.8 from Ritch, made by his new supplier. I am shooting 75s 3320 with 30 grains of ar comp out of my 6x6.8. Around 0.5-1 MOA depending on how everything comes together. It will shoot 58s 3600+ with 31 grains of h322 just just under 1 MOA. Rather this is "good"or not comes down to opinion I suppose.
That said, I think the DTI is interesting. I was actually strongly considering one before I got my 6x6.8. I am a hot roddder. Anything that gives you the edge is worth doing. If its worth doing, it is worth overdoing in my opinion. Mike keeps saying blowing the shoulders out provides "better performance". Is this velocity, brass life, accuracy, or a mixture of all? I will admit I only researched DTI velocity briefly but I do not see an advantage in the velocity department. I am open to be corrected on this however.
The statement that the DTI does not need to be blown out to be accurate is NOT that hard to believe. Factory loads are said to shoot well out of an AI chamber so I see how this situation could be similar. What I do not understand is where the advantage is. My previously mentioned loads leave almost NO room in federal brass for any more powder. So in my mind, the cases would need blown out to gain any capacity to gain velocity.
All the above thoughts are basically based on velocity. THE DTI advantage may be brass life or accuracy. I have no personal experience with the DTI to know.
There is an issue of availability. I do not know how long it takes to get a DTI barrel. I would be interested in knowing that. My RPG barrel came in 8 weeks. I am not sure what Ritch is promising on lead times from his new supplier.
Either way I am sure a coyotes wouldn't know the difference but it is fun to bench race this stuff.
I own and shoot a6x6.8 from Ritch, made by his new supplier. I am shooting 75s 3320 with 30 grains of ar comp out of my 6x6.8. Around 0.5-1 MOA depending on how everything comes together. It will shoot 58s 3600+ with 31 grains of h322 just just under 1 MOA. Rather this is "good"or not comes down to opinion I suppose.
That said, I think the DTI is interesting. I was actually strongly considering one before I got my 6x6.8. I am a hot roddder. Anything that gives you the edge is worth doing. If its worth doing, it is worth overdoing in my opinion. Mike keeps saying blowing the shoulders out provides "better performance". Is this velocity, brass life, accuracy, or a mixture of all? I will admit I only researched DTI velocity briefly but I do not see an advantage in the velocity department. I am open to be corrected on this however.
The statement that the DTI does not need to be blown out to be accurate is NOT that hard to believe. Factory loads are said to shoot well out of an AI chamber so I see how this situation could be similar. What I do not understand is where the advantage is. My previously mentioned loads leave almost NO room in federal brass for any more powder. So in my mind, the cases would need blown out to gain any capacity to gain velocity.
All the above thoughts are basically based on velocity. THE DTI advantage may be brass life or accuracy. I have no personal experience with the DTI to know.
There is an issue of availability. I do not know how long it takes to get a DTI barrel. I would be interested in knowing that. My RPG barrel came in 8 weeks. I am not sure what Ritch is promising on lead times from his new supplier.
Either way I am sure a coyotes wouldn't know the difference but it is fun to bench race this stuff.
dtech
New member
Originally Posted By: R JohnsonThat’s where your misinformed. It was one of YOUR barrels I was shooting. There was no difference. The only thing the changes do is make it proprietary nothing more.
I don’t care who’s barrel you shot chambered in 6 mm DTI. The fact is that Barrel-to-barrel variances disallow making a true compassion. I have taken 3 “identical” Shilen select-match barrels to the range. All the same profile, length and all cut with the same reamer. Two of the three were quite close, the third ran consistently higher in velocity.
If you had one of my barrels chambered in 6x6.8, (and I know you didn’t) shot it, then chambered it in DTI (and I know you didn’t) then you would have a valid point. You don’t hear me claiming I have compared one of your barrels to one of my barrels and boasting of higher velocities, do you? Of course not.
Two points, then I’m done: 1) If I had to use cream of wheat and some fast burning pistol powder for the first shot out of my DTI, then I would say I was “fire-forming”. If I had to reduce the load for virgin brass, then I would agree, I was “fire-forming”. If the accuracy was poor with virgin brass, I may consider it “fire-forming”. None of these are the case. Just because my brass is not exactly the same between virgin brass and once-fired you are use in purely as a “sales tactic” against the DTI. It isn’t true, and it’s a “non issue”.
2) I have never claimed a huge velocity difference between the two chambers I worked with. What I said was that on both barrels that I worked with, originally chambered with a simple neck-down, then chambered in DTI, showed better performance. As simple as that. I have no doubt that the difference in barrels could make or break any gains in velocity you would have achieved with my modest increase in case-capacity and more efficient shoulder-angle..
I don’t care who’s barrel you shot chambered in 6 mm DTI. The fact is that Barrel-to-barrel variances disallow making a true compassion. I have taken 3 “identical” Shilen select-match barrels to the range. All the same profile, length and all cut with the same reamer. Two of the three were quite close, the third ran consistently higher in velocity.
If you had one of my barrels chambered in 6x6.8, (and I know you didn’t) shot it, then chambered it in DTI (and I know you didn’t) then you would have a valid point. You don’t hear me claiming I have compared one of your barrels to one of my barrels and boasting of higher velocities, do you? Of course not.
Two points, then I’m done: 1) If I had to use cream of wheat and some fast burning pistol powder for the first shot out of my DTI, then I would say I was “fire-forming”. If I had to reduce the load for virgin brass, then I would agree, I was “fire-forming”. If the accuracy was poor with virgin brass, I may consider it “fire-forming”. None of these are the case. Just because my brass is not exactly the same between virgin brass and once-fired you are use in purely as a “sales tactic” against the DTI. It isn’t true, and it’s a “non issue”.
2) I have never claimed a huge velocity difference between the two chambers I worked with. What I said was that on both barrels that I worked with, originally chambered with a simple neck-down, then chambered in DTI, showed better performance. As simple as that. I have no doubt that the difference in barrels could make or break any gains in velocity you would have achieved with my modest increase in case-capacity and more efficient shoulder-angle..
dtech
New member
Originally Posted By: dozer_xjBarrel quality and availability is a factor to consider. 6DTIs are Shilen match/ultra match. Who is making decent 6x6.8 barrels?
Proprietary (Hornady Custom) 6DTI dies is also a moot point since a lot of 6x6.8 shooters would rather have a "proprietary" custom die set anyways. Consider the popularity of the recent Hornady 6x6.8 die group buy and prior demand from CH4D. They are only a few bucks more than a bushing die and seater. How many 6x6.8 shooters with bushing dies also purchased custom Hornady or CH4D dies, and doesn't that mean they actually spent a lot more?
Originally Posted By: dozer_xjHere are my neutral thoughts on this...
I own and shoot a6x6.8 from Ritch, made by his new supplier. I am shooting 75s 3320 with 30 grains of ar comp out of my 6x6.8. Around 0.5-1 MOA depending on how everything comes together. It will shoot 58s 3600+ with 31 grains of h322 just just under 1 MOA. Rather this is "good"or not comes down to opinion I suppose.
That said, I think the DTI is interesting. I was actually strongly considering one before I got my 6x6.8. I am a hot roddder. Anything that gives you the edge is worth doing. If its worth doing, it is worth overdoing in my opinion. Mike keeps saying blowing the shoulders out provides "better performance". Is this velocity, brass life, accuracy, or a mixture of all? I will admit I only researched DTI velocity briefly but I do not see an advantage in the velocity department. I am open to be corrected on this however.
The statement that the DTI does not need to be blown out to be accurate is NOT that hard to believe. Factory loads are said to shoot well out of an AI chamber so I see how this situation could be similar. What I do not understand is where the advantage is. My previously mentioned loads leave almost NO room in federal brass for any more powder. So in my mind, the cases would need blown out to gain any capacity to gain velocity.
All the above thoughts are basically based on velocity. THE DTI advantage may be brass life or accuracy. I have no personal experience with the DTI to know.
There is an issue of availability. I do not know how long it takes to get a DTI barrel. I would be interested in knowing that. My RPG barrel came in 8 weeks. I am not sure what Ritch is promising on lead times from his new supplier.
Either way I am sure a coyotes wouldn't know the difference but it is fun to bench race this stuff.
Well done Dozer! Those are the exact points I’ve been trying to make all along!
Don’t purchase a DTI because you might get more velocity. Don’t NOT purchase a DTI because someone told you they need to “fire-form” brass. Base your decisions on things that really count.
Proprietary (Hornady Custom) 6DTI dies is also a moot point since a lot of 6x6.8 shooters would rather have a "proprietary" custom die set anyways. Consider the popularity of the recent Hornady 6x6.8 die group buy and prior demand from CH4D. They are only a few bucks more than a bushing die and seater. How many 6x6.8 shooters with bushing dies also purchased custom Hornady or CH4D dies, and doesn't that mean they actually spent a lot more?
Originally Posted By: dozer_xjHere are my neutral thoughts on this...
I own and shoot a6x6.8 from Ritch, made by his new supplier. I am shooting 75s 3320 with 30 grains of ar comp out of my 6x6.8. Around 0.5-1 MOA depending on how everything comes together. It will shoot 58s 3600+ with 31 grains of h322 just just under 1 MOA. Rather this is "good"or not comes down to opinion I suppose.
That said, I think the DTI is interesting. I was actually strongly considering one before I got my 6x6.8. I am a hot roddder. Anything that gives you the edge is worth doing. If its worth doing, it is worth overdoing in my opinion. Mike keeps saying blowing the shoulders out provides "better performance". Is this velocity, brass life, accuracy, or a mixture of all? I will admit I only researched DTI velocity briefly but I do not see an advantage in the velocity department. I am open to be corrected on this however.
The statement that the DTI does not need to be blown out to be accurate is NOT that hard to believe. Factory loads are said to shoot well out of an AI chamber so I see how this situation could be similar. What I do not understand is where the advantage is. My previously mentioned loads leave almost NO room in federal brass for any more powder. So in my mind, the cases would need blown out to gain any capacity to gain velocity.
All the above thoughts are basically based on velocity. THE DTI advantage may be brass life or accuracy. I have no personal experience with the DTI to know.
There is an issue of availability. I do not know how long it takes to get a DTI barrel. I would be interested in knowing that. My RPG barrel came in 8 weeks. I am not sure what Ritch is promising on lead times from his new supplier.
Either way I am sure a coyotes wouldn't know the difference but it is fun to bench race this stuff.
Well done Dozer! Those are the exact points I’ve been trying to make all along!
Don’t purchase a DTI because you might get more velocity. Don’t NOT purchase a DTI because someone told you they need to “fire-form” brass. Base your decisions on things that really count.
I have 2 DTI and a DTECH 6.8 spc. I take new brass or once fired 6.8 spc brass, lub and run through a 6 DTI or 25 DTI sizer depending on which one I'm shooting, load with my favorite powder[no fireform load] seat bullet and shoot. I have not seen any noticeable accuracy difference in first load and subsequent loads.