Why are so many 204's for sale?

bluecat-- OK, just for you, here is the absolute last ballistics chart I am going to put together for you folks. This one has the 55 gr. V-Max in the .22-250 compared to the 40 gr. V-Max in the .204 Ruger with a muzzle velocity of right between the two speeds you suggested. Personally, in my 26" barreled Savage 12VLP, I don't think I'll settle for any velocity less than in the 3,850 foot range unless I find an absolutley fantastic 5-shot one hole load a wee bit slower /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

I would recommend that if you want more trajectory charts, go to JBM Trajectory Calulations and whip them up for yourselves. It just takes too much of my time away from perusing this board to put all that gobbeldy goop together for you guys. Then half the folks who post their opinion about the wind drifting poor trajectoried .204 Ruger bullets haven't even taken the time to peruse through the billions and billions of charts I have put together and posted here /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

OK, here's the chart

22-250_55gr_3750_204_40gr--small.jpg


The trajectories are a lot closer on these two comparisons, but the advantage (albeit very small) still goes to the .204 Ruger and the 40 gr. V-Max. Now, if we would plug in that 39 gr. Sierra with the .287 BC at 3,750 fps, I know we'd see a bit more of an advantage. Someone else can plug those numbers in a please post the chart here in the next 15 or 20 minutes so I can see it before I go nighty-night.

The wind drift advantage favors the .204 pill too. OK, that's the end of the charts. I need to go surf the Net.
 
I bought a .204 Ruger with high expectations for it. If it is so bad, why can't I get ammo for it? I asked Sportsmans Warehouse to order me a case of ammo before Christmas, and it is not here yet. Cabela's says they have it by the ton, but two weeks have gone by and it is not here yet. None of the other sporting goods stores or gun stores in town have any either.

I always post that the rifle is usually a lot better shot than I am. I have a Ruger in .223 and .22-250 and shoot a 10 shot group I can cover with a quarter, so that means 10 dead prairie dogs to me. That is all the pressure I want to put on my rifles for accuracy. I am getting what I expect from them

When I retire and have a lot more time to fiddle around with loads and rifles, then maybe I will try some benchrest shooting.

Till then I just want a rifle that makes the prairie dogs go pop. So far, I have no complaints, and expect to be more than pleased when I start popping them with the .204.

I don't mean offense to anyone here when I say this, so I hope no one will think I am trying to be a wiseass, but I just go out to have fun, not become a fanatic, and again, I am not calling anyone else that. But, I guess that didn't work so well. I have become a fanatic about shooting prairie dogs.
 
In the factory offerings the 204 is a much better long range chamber than the 22-250 or the 220 Swift. The 22-250 and the Swift could be good long range chambers, but not with the factory barrels. BC rules and the factory 22-250 and Swift can't shoot the high BC bulets. Most factory 223s can shoot higher BC bullets than the 22-250 and Swift.

A good 50-60gr VLD bullet in the 204 caliber could retire all the hot 224s and maybe the 6mm s.

Jack
 
That is as true as it is false if we are just comparing the maximum potential of each chambering with factory barrels only. With external ballistics the .204 has the edge but as I pointed out above, weight and sectional density are important too the “whole” as well. For coyotes (to me) that is important. It is really immaterial for small varmints and paper. For over all terminal ballistics the edge would have to go to the .224s with heaver bullets. The over all comparison is still at a draw to me.

I don’t think even with a great 50 or 60 grain offering the .204 Ruger will retire anything. If we are still talking about factory barrels here I don’t think the 50 will stabilize and I am pretty sure you would have to be on the moon for a 60 grainer to stabilize out of the factory barrel. LOL

Factory 22-250s and .220 swifts SHOULD come standard with at least a 1-12 twist!!! There is no reason not to. There are just way too many good bullets out there that the average shooter can’t use. Some one should start a petition and lobby for a faster twist!!! LOL Hey, I am not kidding. It might work.

Here lies the problem. What do you want? A flat shooting round that bucks wind pretty good or a not so flat shooting round that bucks wind great? That is a rhetorical question that I ask myself every time I think about switching to a new coyote round. To get the best of both worlds you will have a barrel burner that makes fur burgers out of coyote hides. NO GOOD!!!! LOL

The .204 really has my attention. If they could come up with a polymer tipped 40 grain bullet with a BC around .280 that had a controlled expansion like the AccuBonds I would own one. In my opinion the 40gr bullet is the optimum weight for that round. At 3900fps it appears to have the best balance between trajectory, wind bucking ability and retained energy out to most practical ranges.

It is easy to get a flat shooter or a wind bucker but getting them both in one package that will be easy on hides and yet have the punch to drive through the point of a coyote shoulder is a tall order. At this time it is still give or take.

Distance is very relative to the discussion as well. For coyotes or any other varmint if you are only shooting 150 yards, trajectory and wind is almost irrelevant. Under these conditions I wouldn’t shoot a bullet much over 3000 feet per second. A 55gr BT would be a fine choice out of a .223 Rem. You could get by with that and never have to look back. I know, I have killed a LOT of coyotes with that combination.

Good hunting.

Q,
 
Q writes:
Factory 22-250s and .220 swifts SHOULD come standard with at least a 1-12 twist!!! There is no reason not to. There are just way too many good bullets out there that the average shooter can’t use. Some one should start a petition and lobby for a faster twist!!! LOL Hey, I am not kidding. It might work.
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I've been frustrated with not only the 22-250's twist rate, but also the .223 Remington. I have wanted to try some of the heavier offerings from bullet makers, Particularly the 65 grain "Gameking" bullet from Sierra. My 1 in 12 rifle just won't do much better then a 4 inch pattern at 100 yards. The only factory guns I know of on the market that have kept up with bullet makers is the Savage, offering 1 in 9 for the .223, and 1 in 12 with the 22-250.

I realize I can re-barrel, or buy an AR to get what I what, but it would make life easier if I could just buy a modern twist rifle off the rack.

Is there a reason that gun markers hold onto the old slow twist mindset? In a healthy barrel would the fast twists explode light bullets?

I'd love an off the shelf .223 Remington 700 with a 1 in 8 twist. Open up alot of options I can't explore now.
 
sleddog:

You sound like an ideal candidate for an EBR with a fast twist barrrel. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Probably the main reasons for not having fast twist barrels on the shelf rifles is they would not match the more popular shelf ammo in 223, 22-250.

Also, a fast twist barrel will shoot out quicker that an slower one - The average Joe doesn't like to hear that his Remchester barrel didn't last as long as it should have. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif - BCB
 
I have only one .243 right now. It is an old 788 Remington that I don’t shoot much. A good friend of mine uses a 700 Remington for coyotes with great success. A few years ago he was thinking about trading his rig off for a 22-250 or a .220 swift. He liked how flat and accurate mine was. Because the rifle shot so good I told him to hold off on trading and try some Nosler .55s and some Hornady 58s and 65 grainers.

You see out here a flat shooting rifle is very convenient on longer shots. With a .55 or a .58gr bullet you are at a par with the swift with a 55gr Ballistic tip. Actually the .243 will do better than the swift at full capacity with the 55gr Ballistic Tip because the .243 55gr bullet has a higher listed BC (.276) than the .224 caliber 55gr version. It lists a .267 BC. I know that doesn’t make sense at first but it does really. Just guessing I would say that Nosler wanted to get the highest BC out of a .55 grain bullet that would still stabilize out of a 1-14 twist barrel. Just guessing? In the case of the .243 they had no constraints for that weight of bullet so they went ahead and stretched it out to get an attractive BC. That offering would, in effect, convert 1000s of deer rifles into flat shooting varmint slayers. People now wouldn’t have to run out and buy a new gun, as in the case of my friend, to enjoy superior mid range ballistics.

He never made it past the 55gr Nosler. We were shooting 1-inch groups one after another at 200 yards. That is good and better than he had ever done with the rifle so he didn’t change a single thing. He still shoots that bullet with the exact same charge of RL 15 powder. LOL

Some .243s just won’t shoot the little 55s from what I have heard but mine does as good as any other bullet with them. It might be something to try? Just keep in mind that they will blow up coyote fur if you give them a half of a chance. Why this round is a good choice out here is its external ballistics. It just makes it easier to hit coyotes when you don’t have to hold off to slightly over 300 yards. Three hundred yards is a long poke if you get right down to it and unlike a prairie dog, with coyotes you can usually bank on only one good shot. Rarely do you have time after the first shot to make the proper adjustments. LOL

Sleddogg, I am behind times on a lot of the factory stuff. I didn’t even know that savage offered a 22-250 that had a 1-12 twist. I was just under the assumption that the industry slandered was a 1-14 twist. Good on them.

Is there a reason that gun markers hold onto the old slow twist mindset? In a healthy barrel would the fast twists explode light bullets?
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Bench rest shooters out to 300 yards or maybe even a bit further like relatively light flat based bullets because they are easy to stabilize and they do so quickly after leaving the barrel. These guys are at the cutting edge of accuracy development but for the most part maintain that the best accuracy is obtained with the slowest twist rates that will stabilize there little 60 and 68gr bullets that they push out of their 6ppcs. They are right and even if they were wrong I wouldn’t know any better because I am just going off of what I have read. LOL

I can’t pretend I know anything about bench rest other than what I have read and gathered from books and other resources so please just take this for what its worth and it may not be that much. LOL Any way I have a theory so stand back. LOL

The 22-250 or a very close verson of it was used in early bench rest until the .222 bumped it off. At that time, time of flight was thought to be important and intragel part of extreme rifle accuracy because the thought was that the less time the bullet spent in the air the less time mother nature had to mess with it. That is true to a point too. Light fast bullets were the name of the game and the 14 twist was preferred.

The Swifts claim to fame was sizzling velocities with little bullets so the marketers of the time were not interested in an 8 twist bbl to shoot 75gr bullets.

My thoughts are that they just used the popular twist rates of the time and left it at that. The 223 is given a tighter twist because it was initially designed for a hevier bullet and we wanted a civilian model that could pick up and shoot any military surplus ammo that the consumer might get his hands on.

Most guys don’t shoot far enough to appreciate the longer bullets with the impressive BCs so that may be a factor as well. Another could be adjusting the throat. Heavier bullets need longer throats for best results and that could take away from the lighter more popular bullets accuracy potential. Who knows? I think a medium could be found to help accommodate the growing number of bullet offerings though.

Your 4 inch groups surprise me? I would think a 1 in 12 twist should stabilize that bullet?

Good hunting.

Q,
 
Hi Q,
Well that 4 inch at 100 was a slight exageration. I just dug out a target dated from November. It was 3 1/4 inches @ 110 yards. Not terrible for a standard 700, but the same gun will shoot an inch with 40 grain Noslers BT, and an inch and a half with 50 grain SP's. My 700 digs little bullets.

I wanted to try those heavy bullets to get some shoulder smashing power, as the 50's in my .223 Remington ain't cutting it. Most my shots are well under 100 yards, so I may try them anyway, just to see if it makes any difference.

I also have tried many different bullets in my .243, and keep giong back to the 85's on coyotes. No lack of knockdown there, no matter what angle.

But back to the .204, I'm gonna watch Eastern coyotemen and thier .204's closly and see the results. I have horrible results with my .223 and 40 grain Vmaxes, as far as anchoring dogs. Maybe that little extra B.C. or sectional density will help the .204. I guess some fellas are doing well with the .204 on coyotes, maybe Hornady beefed up the jackets on the .204 Vmaxes.

I did shoot 2 boxes of ammo through a friends Ruger Ultra Light .204, and see why every loves it. It was a pleasant round to shoot, and extremely fun!
 
Sliverfox,

My head expoled two of your posts ago! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Wish I knew half of what you've forgot!

Thanks, when the piggy bank allows there will be a new .204 Ruger in the form of a Remington 700 in my safe.

And thanks to everyone else who put in thier two-cents-worth.

Steve
 
gil-wy, Send that piece of crap Savage to me.I'll use it as a..a.. oh yeah a boat anchor!Please e-mail me for my shipping address,and thanks in advance! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
very interesting and somewhat comical debate, gentlemen. you can chalk another one up for the yay sayers as i bought a barrel(26in heavy) for my encore after reading silverfoxes posts on the round and i must say i'm completely and undenyably in love with this little burner. mine is not custom and i haven't started reloading for it yet but i bought a 1/2 dozen boxes of 32 vm (all that was available at the time, he had no 40's) and after she settled down (almost 2 1/2 boxes) mine cloverleafs three shots at 100. i'm into my last box now and i have to get dies and components. but i will go get more factories,too. i've only killed crows with it to date (furthest abt 300yds) it shoots well in the wind, much better than my 223 and probably my 22-250 also. it has fast become my favorite small cal. my varmint cals are 22wmr, 22 hornet, 222,223,225,22-250,243,25-06,7-08,308. also have several other cals that i have not used on vermin, but this gun is by far the most fun, and deadly accurate to boot. CAW CAW CAW...BANGPOOOF!!! sorry so looong!!! silver fox, you have shown me the light!!!! lol /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
hunterintheshadows-- It good to hear that you got a good shooter there in that .204 caliber. I'm not really crusading to get everyone to buy a .204 Ruger, I just think that it is a good caliber if you have a nitch for it in your arsenal. For me it fits quite nicely between my .17 Remington and my Tikka Master Sporter in 22-250. Let us know how the reloads work, once you get to doing that fun chore.
 
some people like lemonade some people dont sounds like a classic Ford vs Chevy debate to me. but it keeps us busy I guess. Shoot what you have confidence in place your shot well and even a 177 pellet gun will do the job.
 
Sliverfox, you should go and shoot some of those .20 Sierra's. There in the Cabelas shooting catalog so I'm thinkin they have some available. Post what happens if you would. Would love to see!
good hunting,
judd
 
I agree and would never sell my Savage Model 12 in 204. Heavy barrel topped with a 6-24 by 50 Nikon. I reload with Sierra 39gr blitz and Varget powder and getting 4000fps. Shots out to 400yds. are no problem and very little drop.
 
a custom 204 with zero freebore would be fantastic to say the least!

X Caliber Rifle barrels in Montana is putting out a fantastic SS match barrel the way you like for $200(does not include chambering).

 
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