Why does a shotgun pattern high?

M

MB2

New member
I finally got around to patterning my new choke tube. I'm shooting a Remington 870 3", a Hevi Shot Super Full tube (.650) I'm using Dead Coyote. I patterned it using my lighted sight bead which is almost exactly the same height off the rib as the stock bead. At 25 yards it's about 1 to 2 foot high, at 50 yards it's 2-3 feet high. The way it is I'm gonna have to aim at the coyote's feet in order to connect. What makes a gun do this? The last time I patterned it was with a Remington tube, an Extra Full, and it was about a foot high.
Is it because of the high velocity of the Hevi Shot?
Any comments would be appreciated. Maybe GC will chime in.
 
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I know some guns are setup to account for "rising" birds, such as from a covey of quail (eg. dedicated trap guns), but I don't think the 870 is one of them.
I dunno..
 
Shotguns should always pattern above the muzzle so you do not have to hide the target with the muzzle. Yours does seem a bit extreme though.

Jack
 
You say the lighted sight is almost the same height as the original stock bead. That almost could be more than you realized. It sounds like the gun always patterned a little high and that is normally due to a high comb and with the new sight it is now exaggerated. You can do one of two things. One is to remove some of the stocks comb and refinish the stock or two, adjust your cheek weld to the stock until you get the hold you need. The first one is a lot of work and the second one will eventually screw you up if you use another shotgun for hunting. Actually a third option is to use one of those rear sights turkey hunters use and then you can make adjustments as if it were a rifle.
 
I was thinking about getting one of those rear sights. The problem is what about those fast shots when they come in running or on follow up shots? I'm thinking a peep might make those kinds of shots pretty tough.
It seems to me peeps are geared more toward turkey and deer hunters where you have a basically still target. Coyotes and fox always seem to be moving.
I don't know what to do really. Maybe I'll try a peep.
I'm looking it over as we speak and the lighted sight is not off more than a millimeter or two. It is so close. So that's not enough to change it any more than an inch or two, especially at 25 yards.
I'll tell you what patterning Dead Coyote is getting to be pretty expensive.
 
the peep sight is faster for target aquisition than you would think. there's a reason the military has been using them for so long. i actually barely even notice the peep anymore. unless i'm focusing really hard to get the perfect sight picture, i just see the front post.

back to your shotgun, though. have you ever patterned it with stock choke tubes? i'd check with those tubes first, then try your new tube. you could also try a cheaper load, and try to see what's really going on. you are looking down the barrel and not over the barrel, correct?
 
Stock fit? That's why some manufacturers provide stock shims. So the shooter can adjust the point of impact to where he looks. And, some guns are just a little out of whack. Once I was assigned an 870 for my patrol car. Knowing how fickle shotguns can be I took it to the range before hitting the street with it. Buckshot was identical to what you described, high, really high. A slug at 50 yards was about 3' high! I exchanged it for another identical 870 from the rack in the armoury, and, guess what? Shot perfectly to point of impact!
 
Out of 2 870's I have 1 shoots at point of aim one shoots slightly high. Adjustable sights can fix it fast so can getting the gun to fit right but 870's don't have the option of shims like benelli's do. You do get what you pay for.
 
Thanks for the replies guys. I never realized that this was a common problem. I also never heard of a shim adjusting method on any shotgun. Tomorrow I'm gonna get a peep and a box of sixes and see what I can do. G.C. your reply was especially helpful. So it's an individual gun thing. That is very good to know. As far as looking down the barrel versus over the barrel, I dunno. lol. All I know is I wacked my nose with my trigger hand on the first shot. Hurt like heck. I was standing. It was about 20 below windchill so I was kind of in a hurry. Tomorrow I'll haul the bench out and do it right.
870 you been out in this weather? lol. I actually did a couple stands Friday night. It wasn't too bad when the wind died down. I put on 5 layers, two hats and my snowboard mittens on over my fleece mittens. There was deer everywhere so I figured the coyotes would be feeding too, getting prepared for the really cold stuff. I had one come in and circle downwind about 150 yards out and then bug out. It sucked. The first time I left the .204 in the truck on this piece of land. If I would of had it with me it would have been dead. I doubt I'll get out until Wednesday. It's not getting any better anytime soon. I think last wednesday and thursday would have been the best time to be out.
 
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Another question: is anybody using the HeviShot Super Full on their 870? I was thinking this would be the ultimate long range pattern for my gun and that's why I bought it. I have the stock Full, an Extra Full, and then this Super Full. I'm gonna try them all out with the #6 and see what happens. The problem is that #6 is not really comparable to Dead Coyote. But it should give me a better understanding of what the chokes do to a pattern.
 
Your barrel may be bored off.
i have an 870 that shoots slugs 2' left at50 yds. Tried several choke tubes with no change. Scratching my head I looked at the chokes, inside you could see where the slug rubbed, slid, deflected whatever you want to call it off one side of the choke tube. I never tried shooting it without a tube to see if there is a change but I assume the threads in the barrel for the choke are not inline with the barrel.

I fixed it by getting a beretta /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Sometimes the threaded section for the choke tube is not on line with the rest of the barrel through errors in the threading process. I once had a Winchester 101 over-under that patterned one barrel 2-3 feet to one side at 30 yards. With a tube installed, you could actually see its off center status by looking down the barrel from the breech end. Bad.
 
Actually now I think of it, Remington did go through a phase and ended up with a run of off bored barrels. There is even an elepitcal choke tube, sort of egg shaped, to help offset such an oddity. In practice it's an adjustable choke tube. Adjustable sights "may" have enough adjustment. And, they may not either. A scope or glass sight such as a red dot is in the same league. Maybe enough adjustment, maybe not. A new barrel might be in order, depending upon how badly you want to keep that particular gun. Regarding peep sights, make sure your aperture, the opening is large. Get something from about .200" upward to .250" for a shotgun slinging large shot for fast movers. That's accurate enough, yet offers plenty of window for the rear aperture to "ghost out" and not be in the sight picture. Learn to shoot with both eyes open and you'll increase your view by twice as much and be quicker. You also maintain the peripheal vision that way.
 
Thanks for the info G.C. So would a tighter choke tube enchance the results (negative performance) of an off bored barrel? I'm guessing it would. I'll look for a large peep. It's gonna have to wait another day though. The thermometer outside reads -4F. With winds at 15 mph. I still haven't been able to muster up the ambition to go get the Sunday paper.
 
Weedwlaker has a good solution. But to get back to why to patterns so high. Me and my son do ALOT of shotguning. Last year we went through over 15,000 rounds. We also do alot of patterning. Does your 870 have just a single front bead or does it have a bead mid down the barrel aswell? When you are looking down the barrel of the gun do you see any of the top of the rib or do you just see the back of it. If you see any of the top of the rib thats why it shoot so high. From personal experience I've found that Remingtons tend to pattern a little higher than some guns on the market. Like already mentioned they are that way so you can still see the target when you shoot at it. The exesive height you talk about though makes me think its a fit issue (rib/site picture) rather than a gun issue. Are you a bigger than average guy?

Tim
 
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I'm a hair shy of 6 foot and skinny (I prefer "wiry") so it's not a size issue. I'm gonna hit up Gander this week and see what I can find for a peep sight. I'm very hesitant to put a scope on it. There's just too many times where I've had them run in fast and I've had a split second to make the shot. And I've only been hunting them seriously for two years.
 
The more I think about it the more I believe weedwalker has the best solution, provided this is a dedicated coyote shotgun. Even if it isn't dedicated, the scope mount saddles are easy to install and remove on all shotguns. A large red dot tube is actually faster to use than open sights and you are shooting with both eyes open. Even the cheap Simmons red dot sold at WalMart for $30 plus around $25 for the mount would be worth the experiment. You just throw the gun up, put the dot on the coyote and pull the trigger.
 
MB2
I made 3 stands this morning(sunday) and called a pair of yotes on the first 2 stands and shot all 4 yotes and called a bunch of crows on the last stand so I dropped some 6's in and let a couple of them have it. It was awful cold though. It was just getting light when I got out there and the thermo read -9 and the wind picked up as it got light out. I then went sporting clay shooting that was brutal in the wind on a hill looking into the wind.
 
300 that American flag never looked so good!

Welcome to the board Gohon.

MB2, the first batch of 11-87's had off line threads but they would shoot left or right. Sounds like you may have something like this. Is this shotgun new?
 


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