winchester black talon info

L

lampy

New member
Hey fellas,

I just bought a XD(m) yesterday in .45 ACP and dad happened to stumble upon 400+ Black Talon rounds he reloaded a couple years ago that he said I could have, as he no longer has a .45. I have a few questions.

1. How long is powder "good" for after rounds have been reloaded. They have been kept in an old Army ammo box in a climate controlled shop.

2. Am I going to get canned for carrying this ammo? Supposedly it was outlawed??

3. Anyone ever use/have/shot this ammo? What did it do balistically?

Thanks!

Steven
 
If this ammo was stored in a climate controlled environment, it should be good for many decades.

The Black Talon was not outlawed, but just the victim of bad media publicity. Winchester pulled the product, and basically removed the coating and introduced it under another name. I believe that it was the original Ranger bullet.

Balistically they are fine, but bullet making has advanced quite a bit in the last 15 years, and there are better bullets on the market. I wouldn't have hesitation about using them in my carry pistol. I know someone that still uses them as a personal defense load.
 
Your good to go, powder will last for decades,especially sealed inside a round, and in a ammo can in a shop, it will probably outlast you. LOL

I see your in Indiana, they were never "outlawed" here, I'm not sure they were ever truly outlawed anywhere. It was all a big hulabaloo by the anti-gun media.

Can't help you with the performance of them.
 
Originally Posted By: TwoSeventyIf this ammo was stored in a climate controlled environment, it should be good for many decades.

The Black Talon was not outlawed, but just the victim of bad media publicity. Winchester pulled the product, and basically removed the coating and introduced it under another name. I believe that it was the original Ranger bullet.

agreed.........
 
Originally Posted By: lampyWhat do you carry in your pistol, if you don't mind me asking Personally, I would never carry reloads in a firearm for everyday carry.
I use the Winchester Ranger loads, 230JHP.
JMO
 
Originally Posted By: TwoSeventyBalistically they are fine, but bullet making has advanced quite a bit in the last 15 years, and there are better bullets on the market. I wouldn't have hesitation about using them in my carry pistol. I know someone that still uses them as a personal defense load.

I would not hesitate either, as I still feel they are one of the most devastating personal defense bullets ever made. Maybe THE most.

I'm curious as to what bullets you feel are "better"..........
 
Originally Posted By: sharkathmiOriginally Posted By: lampyWhat do you carry in your pistol, if you don't mind me asking Personally, I would never carry reloads in a firearm for everyday carry.
I use the Winchester Ranger loads, 230JHP.
JMO

Why wouldn't you carry reloads for protection? You would know your gun shoots them well, and if you know what you're doing, there shouldn't be any problem performance wise
 
Originally Posted By: lampyOriginally Posted By: sharkathmiOriginally Posted By: lampyWhat do you carry in your pistol, if you don't mind me asking Personally, I would never carry reloads in a firearm for everyday carry.
I use the Winchester Ranger loads, 230JHP.
JMO

Why wouldn't you carry reloads for protection? You would know your gun shoots them well, and if you know what you're doing, there shouldn't be any problem performance wise A couple of reasons...
In the CCW class I had they strongly recommended that no one use reloads in a carry gun.
I've yet to talk with an instructor that thought it was OK, or a good idea.
The other reason is IF you ever had to shoot someone, even if there were no criminal charges filed against you, there would most likely be civil charges.

In that case, their defense attorney would say:
What? You couldn't find any factory ammunition that was deadly or destructive enough for you? You had to create your own?

Just makes you look like the outlaw, instead of the bystander, victim, protector, whatever your role was.

It's the same reason you will not see any law enforcement departments authorize the use of reloads.

I'm sure there are others on the board here that can better explain why you should not.

Anyone?
 
Originally Posted By: 2muchgun I'm curious as to what bullets you feel are "better"..........

What I was saying is that bullet technology has advanced a a quick pace, and there are many great offerings from just about every major manufacturer.

Winchester has the PDX1 which is the latest evolution of what started with the Black Talon. The Ranger would also fit in the as good as or better catagory.

The Speer Gold Dot, which is probably the most widely used PD bullet currently available.

Hornady XTP
Remington Golden Sabre
Barnes XPB

My personal choices are the 155 gr. Speer Gold Dot in 40 S&W, and the 125 gr. Hornady XTP in the 38 Sp.
 
Originally Posted By: sharkathmiOriginally Posted By: lampyOriginally Posted By: sharkathmiOriginally Posted By: lampyWhat do you carry in your pistol, if you don't mind me asking Personally, I would never carry reloads in a firearm for everyday carry.
I use the Winchester Ranger loads, 230JHP.
JMO

Why wouldn't you carry reloads for protection? You would know your gun shoots them well, and if you know what you're doing, there shouldn't be any problem performance wise
The other reason is IF you ever had to shoot someone, even if there were no criminal charges filed against you, there would most likely be civil charges.

In that case, their defense attorney would say:
What? You couldn't find any factory ammunition that was deadly or destructive enough for you? You had to create your own?

Just makes you look like the outlaw, instead of the bystander, victim, protector, whatever your role was.



That is a VERY good point. Never thought of that!
 
The Ranger is basically the same bullet.

While all the bullets you mention are good, and I particularly love the Gold Dot and always have, I would still take the Black Talon or Ranger over any offering mentioned. It simply causes so much trauma and tissue damage that it is ridiculous. Whomever invented it, got it right, and then some.

I have seen first hand what it does in police ballistics gelatin as compared to other bullets. For sheer amount of damage, nothing comes close. It is one badazz bullet, to say the least..........
 
Originally Posted By: lampyI went to winchesters website and I didn't seem to find anything on the rangers? I googled Winchester Ranger and found these guys.
They have a large supply.
Midway USA, Cabela's or Midsouth Shooters Supply did not show them.
confused.gif
 
This is probably a stupid question but is the .45 XD(m) +p rated? I just ordered one yesterday and I don't really know what kind of ammo it likes, or if it can even handle +p loads
 
Here is SA page for the XD pistol.
Here is the page for the XD(M) pistol
You can read up on the differences.
+P ammunition is a little "hotter" than regular ammunition, loaded to higher pressures.
They make it in a number of calibers: 9MM+P, 38SPL+P, 45 Auto+P.
Some older pistols are not rated for the higher pressures, therefore, not +P rated.
HTH
 
Originally Posted By: sharkathmiOriginally Posted By: lampyOriginally Posted By: sharkathmiOriginally Posted By: lampyWhat do you carry in your pistol, if you don't mind me asking Personally, I would never carry reloads in a firearm for everyday carry.
I use the Winchester Ranger loads, 230JHP.
JMO

Why wouldn't you carry reloads for protection? You would know your gun shoots them well, and if you know what you're doing, there shouldn't be any problem performance wise A couple of reasons...
In the CCW class I had they strongly recommended that no one use reloads in a carry gun.
I've yet to talk with an instructor that thought it was OK, or a good idea.
The other reason is IF you ever had to shoot someone, even if there were no criminal charges filed against you, there would most likely be civil charges.

In that case, their defense attorney would say:
What? You couldn't find any factory ammunition that was deadly or destructive enough for you? You had to create your own?

Just makes you look like the outlaw, instead of the bystander, victim, protector, whatever your role was.

It's the same reason you will not see any law enforcement departments authorize the use of reloads.

I'm sure there are others on the board here that can better explain why you should not.

Anyone?

Mark, after researching this subject and reading alot of threads about it, some claim that Ayoob's theory here has never happened as of yet. Will it? Who knows? An interesting thought however is what about store bought ammo? Couldnt a good lawyer raise the same type of scenario? What? You were shooting "enter brand here" because a standard load was not powerful enough for you? Did you premeditate anything by buying ammo proven to have more lethal power? Id guess its up to the individual to decide for himself. In the case of my 44, I have not fired a factory round of any brand in it, just handloads. Id doubt that a jury would find a person guilty of a type of ammo especially if it was a justifiable shooting. Interesting subject to think about though.
 
Grant, I hear what you are saying.
I've taken two different CCW classes in two different states and both instructors stated not to use reloads, in part, for the reasons stated above. I can't remember all the details of the classes.
As a LEO we were strictly forbidden to even think of carrying reloads.
Quote:Id doubt that a jury would find a person guilty of a type of ammo especially if it was a justifiable shootingI'm assuming you are talking criminal trial and if so, I would agree.
As I understand it, the liability is in the civil liability if you were to be sued by the subjects survivors.
In that case, it is not Guilty Beyond A Reasonable Doubt, it is Preponderance of the Evidence, meaning you don't have to have all 12 jurors agree.
A slick talking attorney just may be able to put you in a bad spot in the eyes of the [civil] jury.
I'm hoping others who are better informed on this topic will chime in so we can all have a better understanding of the pro's and con's of carrying reloads, if one chooses to do that.
 
Those same thoughts could be brought up with store bought ammo designed for self defence I think too. Its interesting to think about Mark.. just because this hasn't happened yet, doesen't mean it can't/wont. I only hope Im never in the position to find out!
 
Even before 1968, when the U S Supreme Court made the decision that abolished the Sovereign Immunity concept and allowed the filing of civil action against individual officers and therefor, agencies and cities for civil liability, the police departments were very wont to require using only factory ammo...

At that time, I was on the Kansas City PD and we were carrying issued .38 spl and there were a few of us that carried the Distinguished Expert marksmanship rating (I still do) that were allowed to carry .357 magnums...

We had a shooting of an armed suspect where the responding officer emptied his sidearm with one warning shot, one in the shoulder, one in the leg and the remaining three in a tight group in the middle of the chest with 158gr RN that were department issued rounds...The suspect lived and recovered in the hospital..

Our firearms ballistic expert issued each street officer a special hand load using the standard brass and those that carried them kept them as the first round up in their K-38 S&W Combat Masterpieces...with the rest as factory department issued rounds...

Since that time, I've never had any attorney promote using reloads for street ammo and when I became a firearms instructor, the training I received, in part at the Univ of Louisville Law School, furnished enough information that we were able to convince the powers to be that we needed to train and qualify with "duty" rounds, rather than our previous practice of using the less expensive 3-D reloaded, lower velocity rounds... This was backed up by the cities legal department...

While I will attempt to duplicate the commercial factory loads for practice, I still carry factory rounds in my CC weapons, if in public..Some of it is Black Talon and some is the IQ ammo that is target sensitive
 
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