Wind bucking ability @ 500 yrds
- Thread starter chuck hunter
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chuck hunter
New member
Many people on this site need to know WHY the very low drag VLD bullets do so well.
I do under stand why it preforms well at distance.
It has more mass to retain energy.
Can you give an explanation to the under educated (like me,) why the mass or BC is so important?
I do under stand why it preforms well at distance.
It has more mass to retain energy.
Can you give an explanation to the under educated (like me,) why the mass or BC is so important?
chuck hunter, you will have to find out for yourself that most of the bullets with a high BC don't blow up chucks worth a darn...that's the next problem.
There were places in Utah I used to kill 300 chucks a day in the late 70's. It was rare that we had to ever shoot further than 550 yards, I expect that it is still the same today.
I shot some of the very first Berger 105's that were ever made, but they were dismal on chucks, 80g Berger's are so, so.
I would prefer to shoot a bullet with a somewhat less BC, Very fast and get the fun factor. For instance the 70g Ballisitic tip at 4150 fps out of a 244 AI or a 80g Sierra Blitz BT at 3800 out of a 244 AI, a little less with the 243 AI's, and the 75g V Max at 3800 fps + out of a 243AI.
We stomped p. dogs at 700 yards one day with a 244 AI shooting the 75g Sierra's at 3900 out of a 244 AI with a 29" Barrel, we must have shot over the heads of 300 p. dogs to do that, but it was fun. As you will see, the 75g Sierra has a lousy BC.
That was so much fun, I built a 6.5 Rem Mag improved and was fire forming the cases with 85g Sierra's at 3900 fps out of a 29" Max Heavy Varmint barrel.
As you slow down the speed, you get much less splat factor, might as well as stay home. Many of the VLD's just don't expand, chucks crawl off after being shot, p.dogs will just fall over....bores me to death!
Something no one ever talks about, 400 fps makes up for a lot of BC, 500 yards and under. After 500 yards, High BC will take over...at a price....crawlers....
There were places in Utah I used to kill 300 chucks a day in the late 70's. It was rare that we had to ever shoot further than 550 yards, I expect that it is still the same today.
I shot some of the very first Berger 105's that were ever made, but they were dismal on chucks, 80g Berger's are so, so.
I would prefer to shoot a bullet with a somewhat less BC, Very fast and get the fun factor. For instance the 70g Ballisitic tip at 4150 fps out of a 244 AI or a 80g Sierra Blitz BT at 3800 out of a 244 AI, a little less with the 243 AI's, and the 75g V Max at 3800 fps + out of a 243AI.
We stomped p. dogs at 700 yards one day with a 244 AI shooting the 75g Sierra's at 3900 out of a 244 AI with a 29" Barrel, we must have shot over the heads of 300 p. dogs to do that, but it was fun. As you will see, the 75g Sierra has a lousy BC.
That was so much fun, I built a 6.5 Rem Mag improved and was fire forming the cases with 85g Sierra's at 3900 fps out of a 29" Max Heavy Varmint barrel.
As you slow down the speed, you get much less splat factor, might as well as stay home. Many of the VLD's just don't expand, chucks crawl off after being shot, p.dogs will just fall over....bores me to death!
Something no one ever talks about, 400 fps makes up for a lot of BC, 500 yards and under. After 500 yards, High BC will take over...at a price....crawlers....
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chuck hunter
New member
ackleyman
I'll have to agree with you.
If any one has watched my chuck hunting videos or DVD's, they can see I like the wow factor.
Most of my shooting is under 500 yrds and I like the fast flat trajectory with explosive bullets.
But there is something to be said for long distace Elk, deer and that size of game with the heavyer bullets so we need to listen to all opinions.
I don't want to shoot at a chuck with a 180 gr bullet to gain wind bucking ability, only to have that chuck stand up and look around because the bullet acted like a FMJ.
I've seen that happen.
But there is a point where if you are shooting at a big elk at 7.8, 900 yrds it may apply.
So we need to listen to all thoughts and applications people have.
One thing in my mind is that the tryjectory is so poor on the VLD high BC bullets that the problem isn't the wind, but the catapult trajectory of the bullet.
On an elk, it's less of a concern.
On a prairie dog you are shooting a big haevy kicking, expensive bullet that impacts shot or long to hit in line with the target to fight the wind.
I've shot 400 to 500 shells out P dog hunting and my nerves ( and wallet)get jangled if I'm shooting a big Bore.
If I'm shooting at big game way out there, one or two shots will do and it's comparing apples and oranges, 500 to 900 yrds.
The title of the post is "Wind bucking ability @ 500 yrds".
That was my question, but it's good to hear others opinions so we can all learn from each other.
CH
I'll have to agree with you.
If any one has watched my chuck hunting videos or DVD's, they can see I like the wow factor.
Most of my shooting is under 500 yrds and I like the fast flat trajectory with explosive bullets.
But there is something to be said for long distace Elk, deer and that size of game with the heavyer bullets so we need to listen to all opinions.
I don't want to shoot at a chuck with a 180 gr bullet to gain wind bucking ability, only to have that chuck stand up and look around because the bullet acted like a FMJ.
I've seen that happen.
But there is a point where if you are shooting at a big elk at 7.8, 900 yrds it may apply.
So we need to listen to all thoughts and applications people have.
One thing in my mind is that the tryjectory is so poor on the VLD high BC bullets that the problem isn't the wind, but the catapult trajectory of the bullet.
On an elk, it's less of a concern.
On a prairie dog you are shooting a big haevy kicking, expensive bullet that impacts shot or long to hit in line with the target to fight the wind.
I've shot 400 to 500 shells out P dog hunting and my nerves ( and wallet)get jangled if I'm shooting a big Bore.
If I'm shooting at big game way out there, one or two shots will do and it's comparing apples and oranges, 500 to 900 yrds.
The title of the post is "Wind bucking ability @ 500 yrds".
That was my question, but it's good to hear others opinions so we can all learn from each other.
CH
I agree with the open-minded concept, no question sir. A couple years ago iwas out shooting with a buddy that was using a 22-250 of some make and 55 gr. Winchester or Remingtons. I was shooting an AR with the 69 gr. Sierra. We were talking about the loads performance at long-range and he siad that the 22-250 is flatter and is better in the wind at "long-range." So i ran the ballistics for both of our loads and found that at some range (practical) the 69 Sierra overtook the 55 Remchesters for wind/velocity and of course energy, WITHIN THE 500-YARD LIMITS OF THIS TOPIC
Bryan Litz (and Dean Michaelis in his "50 Cal. Sniper Book") talk about "Danger Space" which is the range of distance one can expect to hit a target of known size at a certain range FOR BOTH WINDAGE AND ELEVATION. It's better explained in their books, no doubt. The whole thing about the VLD bullets is that they deliver better external ballistics downrange (at some point), and windage is usually better right out the muzzle. No doubt the terminal ballistics can be questionable--i have shot many varmints and game with VLD's and have experienced that also, but i've also seen many times when a coyote was alerted and when the (varmint) bullet hit him at high-velocity, would blow a hole the szie of a hard ball in the opposite chest, and they still run 100-200 yds. before toppelling over.
When Ray Prager killed 4 prairie dogs over 1000 yds. in some midafternoon variable winds with his BIG Contender handgun using the 75 A-Max he killed 4 of them (2 with 1 shot on one of those shots) outright. He may very well have killed those dogs with a 55gr. Nosler, but i wouldn't bet on it. Ernie Bishop's 1590 yarder did not though--of course.
Bobcat, i ran the ballistics of the 70 BT on JBM and at 4500 fps mv the 10 mph FV wind drift at 300 yds. was still 6".?
Jeez, 300 rockchucks a day? The only ones i ever had access to were above treeline. Man sounds like u had some varmint heaven there!
Hope all the pics didn't offend anybody--just been pic-happy lately with my new computer.
Bryan Litz (and Dean Michaelis in his "50 Cal. Sniper Book") talk about "Danger Space" which is the range of distance one can expect to hit a target of known size at a certain range FOR BOTH WINDAGE AND ELEVATION. It's better explained in their books, no doubt. The whole thing about the VLD bullets is that they deliver better external ballistics downrange (at some point), and windage is usually better right out the muzzle. No doubt the terminal ballistics can be questionable--i have shot many varmints and game with VLD's and have experienced that also, but i've also seen many times when a coyote was alerted and when the (varmint) bullet hit him at high-velocity, would blow a hole the szie of a hard ball in the opposite chest, and they still run 100-200 yds. before toppelling over.
When Ray Prager killed 4 prairie dogs over 1000 yds. in some midafternoon variable winds with his BIG Contender handgun using the 75 A-Max he killed 4 of them (2 with 1 shot on one of those shots) outright. He may very well have killed those dogs with a 55gr. Nosler, but i wouldn't bet on it. Ernie Bishop's 1590 yarder did not though--of course.
Bobcat, i ran the ballistics of the 70 BT on JBM and at 4500 fps mv the 10 mph FV wind drift at 300 yds. was still 6".?
Jeez, 300 rockchucks a day? The only ones i ever had access to were above treeline. Man sounds like u had some varmint heaven there!
Hope all the pics didn't offend anybody--just been pic-happy lately with my new computer.
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xphunter
Active member
Originally Posted By: chuck hunterThe title of the post is "Wind bucking ability @ 500 yards".
That was my question, but it's good to hear others opinions so we can all learn from each other.
One thing about the drop of your bullet, if it is an accurate one and you know the distance to target is that it will be the same. In other words, it is a constant. A poly tipped bullet is also an advantage here as the meplat of the bullet is the same.
Wind drift is a whole other issue. It is not a constant. With the potential for multiple directions and up drafts or down drafts depending on the terrain, etc., a higher BC bullet is preferred at least for me.
A higher BC bullet will not drift as much and will give you more fudge factor in dealing with the wind.
The online ballistic software mentioned earlier will let you plug in real world MV's with different bullets and will tell you how much drift you will have at 500 yards.
Of the VLD bullets, the A-Max is probably the most frangible.
If you are only shooting pd's out to 500 yards, then the lighter varmint bullets may be the ticket.
I have not done the comparisons at those ranges.
Also if the "pink mist" experience is a strong desire or videoing is to be done shorter ranges will likely be preferred.
High volume pd's, pink mist,and extreme mangling are not as fun for me as they used to be.
I am content with less kills and further distances.
Just the nature of the beast.
I do know if you intend to stretch things further, the more important the higher BC bullets will be to you.
When you get past 1K, it is all about the BC when it comes to bullet selection.
A good muzzle brake (Try Holland's new Radial design) will make a huge difference in your ability to shoot all day with the bigger rigs.
Good luck in your LR range adventures.
That was my question, but it's good to hear others opinions so we can all learn from each other.
One thing about the drop of your bullet, if it is an accurate one and you know the distance to target is that it will be the same. In other words, it is a constant. A poly tipped bullet is also an advantage here as the meplat of the bullet is the same.
Wind drift is a whole other issue. It is not a constant. With the potential for multiple directions and up drafts or down drafts depending on the terrain, etc., a higher BC bullet is preferred at least for me.
A higher BC bullet will not drift as much and will give you more fudge factor in dealing with the wind.
The online ballistic software mentioned earlier will let you plug in real world MV's with different bullets and will tell you how much drift you will have at 500 yards.
Of the VLD bullets, the A-Max is probably the most frangible.
If you are only shooting pd's out to 500 yards, then the lighter varmint bullets may be the ticket.
I have not done the comparisons at those ranges.
Also if the "pink mist" experience is a strong desire or videoing is to be done shorter ranges will likely be preferred.
High volume pd's, pink mist,and extreme mangling are not as fun for me as they used to be.
I am content with less kills and further distances.
Just the nature of the beast.
I do know if you intend to stretch things further, the more important the higher BC bullets will be to you.
When you get past 1K, it is all about the BC when it comes to bullet selection.
A good muzzle brake (Try Holland's new Radial design) will make a huge difference in your ability to shoot all day with the bigger rigs.
Good luck in your LR range adventures.
BOBTAILS
Active member
Originally Posted By: sscoyote
Bobcat, i ran the ballistics of the 70 BT on JBM and at 4500 fps mv the 10 mph FV wind drift at 300 yds. was still 6".?
No offense taken, maybe the wind was a little different at the 300 yard mark than it was at the bench. I didn't have any wind markers. Also my bullets were only going a little over 3500 fps.
Bobcat, i ran the ballistics of the 70 BT on JBM and at 4500 fps mv the 10 mph FV wind drift at 300 yds. was still 6".?
No offense taken, maybe the wind was a little different at the 300 yard mark than it was at the bench. I didn't have any wind markers. Also my bullets were only going a little over 3500 fps.
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xphunter
Active member
Originally Posted By: BOBTAILSI was shooting 70 grain nosler BT's in about a 10 mph cross wind today and they were blowing about 1.5" at 300 yards out of my 243 AI.
The wind had to be definitely less downrange or coming from a different direction, as a 70 grain NBT, @ 3500 fps at the muzzle, has 7.8" drift with a full value or 10mph crosswind.
Using EXBAL, 0 elev and 59 degrees temp. Didn't know what your atmospheric conditions were. Higher elevation and temps will make it less.
With 85 degrees and 8,500 ft elev, the wind drift is now 5.3" with the same bullet and the same MV.
For a comparison, my 6.5-284 XP-100 specialty handgun, using the 140 grain Berger @ 2725 from the muzzle, has a 5" wind drift, using 0 elev, and 59 degrees @ 300 yards.
Jump the temp and elev as I did for your second numbers and I get 3.5" of drift with a 10 mph FV wind.
If I was using a rifle in this cartridge, then the wind drift would less even yet, but not as much as you would expect. with a 3,000MV at the 85 Degree and 8500 elev the drift is only .4" less
The wind had to be definitely less downrange or coming from a different direction, as a 70 grain NBT, @ 3500 fps at the muzzle, has 7.8" drift with a full value or 10mph crosswind.
Using EXBAL, 0 elev and 59 degrees temp. Didn't know what your atmospheric conditions were. Higher elevation and temps will make it less.
With 85 degrees and 8,500 ft elev, the wind drift is now 5.3" with the same bullet and the same MV.
For a comparison, my 6.5-284 XP-100 specialty handgun, using the 140 grain Berger @ 2725 from the muzzle, has a 5" wind drift, using 0 elev, and 59 degrees @ 300 yards.
Jump the temp and elev as I did for your second numbers and I get 3.5" of drift with a 10 mph FV wind.
If I was using a rifle in this cartridge, then the wind drift would less even yet, but not as much as you would expect. with a 3,000MV at the 85 Degree and 8500 elev the drift is only .4" less
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chuck hunter
New member
Originally Posted By: xphunter
One thing about the drop of your bullet, if it is an accurate one and you know the distance to target is that it will be the same.
Thank you xphunter.
You bring up a very good point.
I've been trying to rap my brain around this concept and I think you have hit it dead on here "the very point we all need to know."
If you are shooting at paper or a metal plate at a known distance, the heavy bullets will do better.
They will buck the wind at 700 yrds better than the light ones will.
They will retain energy better and hold there place coming in to the target even though they are coming in like a mortar.
If you are firing 10 shots at a plate at 700 yards, you can sight in for 700 yards and the VLD bullets will shine.
You just can't shoot at something walking because the animal will walk out from underneath the bullet.
You've made a very good point.
Know the distance to the target and sight in for that distacne and it doesn't matter if the bullet comes down on a 30,40 or even a 45 degree angle.
It's not moving and you have plenty of time and shots to get sighted in.
Thank you.
One thing about the drop of your bullet, if it is an accurate one and you know the distance to target is that it will be the same.
Thank you xphunter.
You bring up a very good point.
I've been trying to rap my brain around this concept and I think you have hit it dead on here "the very point we all need to know."
If you are shooting at paper or a metal plate at a known distance, the heavy bullets will do better.
They will buck the wind at 700 yrds better than the light ones will.
They will retain energy better and hold there place coming in to the target even though they are coming in like a mortar.
If you are firing 10 shots at a plate at 700 yards, you can sight in for 700 yards and the VLD bullets will shine.
You just can't shoot at something walking because the animal will walk out from underneath the bullet.
You've made a very good point.
Know the distance to the target and sight in for that distacne and it doesn't matter if the bullet comes down on a 30,40 or even a 45 degree angle.
It's not moving and you have plenty of time and shots to get sighted in.
Thank you.
TheDogHunter2
New member
SSCOYOTE,
Nice job, you seem to do your home work. Now how the h-ll can you put a coyote in the scope and take a picture with out pulling the trigger? I sure hope you killed him after the photo. Nice camera work.
Nice job, you seem to do your home work. Now how the h-ll can you put a coyote in the scope and take a picture with out pulling the trigger? I sure hope you killed him after the photo. Nice camera work.
TDH--he is dead. It's probably hard to see but he's laying lengthwise at the 1.5 mil mark. U know i actually did try and take a pic of a coyote once that was sleeping thru the optic, but couldn't get it quite right. So i said the heck with it and set up to just shoot him at about 200 yds. and missed--guess i shoulda' just stayed home that day.
NorthAZHuntr
New member
Realise the last post here is a couple of weeks old, but enjoyed the info provided in these posts. For those who shoot factory loads there's a neat little utility/program at the Remington ammo web site that lets you put in specific ammmo, distance, wind speed, direction etc and computes your hit. Interesting for those who are unfamiliar with what just a little wind can do to your shot placement and different ammo. Obviously there are also many web sites with mil dot scope, ultra long distance/sniper shooting information, and while way beyond the "scope" of my shooting needs, is extremely interesting stuff to read. And for guys like Ernie hitting ground squirrels at 1590 yrds, they obvioulsy have it down!
Quote:Even if it is a biodegradable target, you are more likely to hit your target easier with a higher BC bullet. Exactly. I am fortunate to have the time and the means to burn up a couple of barrels each summer shooting p-dogs. I own 3 rifles in .204 Ruger and I like them a lot, but long range shooters and wind buckers they are not.