BUTCHER45
Member
If it were legal, of course. Another question might be "would you carry it on your hunt, or bring a gun-bearer?" LOL!
http://www.xp-airguns.com/-.html
Would you shoot an 1200lb. Roosevelt Elk at 50 yards with this?
- Thread starter BUTCHER45
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If it were legal, of course. Another question might be "would you carry it on your hunt, or bring a gun-bearer?" LOL!
http://www.xp-airguns.com/-.html
It would be illegal in SD too. We need at least 1700foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle.
That said, I love seeing people push the limits, it would be interesting to shoot suppressed at lots of other things.
What other reasons besides energy delivery, make this against the rules in other states?
The only two specifics we have for elk is a minimum of .243 and 1700fpe
That said, I love seeing people push the limits, it would be interesting to shoot suppressed at lots of other things.
What other reasons besides energy delivery, make this against the rules in other states?
The only two specifics we have for elk is a minimum of .243 and 1700fpe
BUTCHER45
Member
Originally Posted By: cbass16It would be illegal in SD too. We need at least 1700foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle.
That said, I love seeing people push the limits, it would be interesting to shoot suppressed at lots of other things.
What other reasons besides energy delivery, make this against the rules in other states?
The only two specifics we have for elk is a minimum of .243 and 1700fpe
One big obstacle in a lot of states, is that it doesn't fit into any of the weapons regulations. It's not a "firearm", "centerfire", etc.
In muzzleloader form, there are a few states that allow it in muzzleloader form for deer hunting....maybe even black bear. I don't think any of the states that allow it have anything bigger than that in them to hunt.
That said, I love seeing people push the limits, it would be interesting to shoot suppressed at lots of other things.
What other reasons besides energy delivery, make this against the rules in other states?
The only two specifics we have for elk is a minimum of .243 and 1700fpe
One big obstacle in a lot of states, is that it doesn't fit into any of the weapons regulations. It's not a "firearm", "centerfire", etc.
In muzzleloader form, there are a few states that allow it in muzzleloader form for deer hunting....maybe even black bear. I don't think any of the states that allow it have anything bigger than that in them to hunt.
BUTCHER45
Member
Almost forgot. I believe this rifle is impossible to suppress. The volume of air being moved is much to high.
I was told that my 280fpe .45 air rifle would require a 13 inch can 7 inches around to reduce the noise about %40 or so. That .58 has over three times that amount of power.
I was told that my 280fpe .45 air rifle would require a 13 inch can 7 inches around to reduce the noise about %40 or so. That .58 has over three times that amount of power.
Originally Posted By: BUTCHER45 Almost forgot. I believe this rifle is impossible to suppress. The volume of air being moved is much to high.
I was told that my 280fpe .45 air rifle would require a 13 inch can 7 inches around to reduce the noise about %40 or so. That .58 has over three times that amount of power.
I don't know that anything is IMPOSSIBLE to suppress. Energy delivery has nothing to do with it's suppression capabilities.
In an air rifle, you don't need to suppress a percussion charge like a primer, you don't need to suppress a powder blast like in a cartridge rifle, and you don't need to fight the supersonic crack of +Mach rounds.
You simply need to slow the rate that air leaves the muzzle. I'm not saying I'm a suppressor designer or even that it is possible, but I think someone was feeding you full of crap when they said it couldn't be done. It's probably just that an air rifle, shooting subsonic, with no gun powder blast...isn't really worth suppressing because it's quiet enough already.
Getting a 40% reduction out of ANY SUPPRESSOR would be remarkable. 40db reduction on a .22lr (155db down to 115db) is really pushing it, let alone 40% which would take it down to 93db.....unheard of.
I was told that my 280fpe .45 air rifle would require a 13 inch can 7 inches around to reduce the noise about %40 or so. That .58 has over three times that amount of power.
I don't know that anything is IMPOSSIBLE to suppress. Energy delivery has nothing to do with it's suppression capabilities.
In an air rifle, you don't need to suppress a percussion charge like a primer, you don't need to suppress a powder blast like in a cartridge rifle, and you don't need to fight the supersonic crack of +Mach rounds.
You simply need to slow the rate that air leaves the muzzle. I'm not saying I'm a suppressor designer or even that it is possible, but I think someone was feeding you full of crap when they said it couldn't be done. It's probably just that an air rifle, shooting subsonic, with no gun powder blast...isn't really worth suppressing because it's quiet enough already.
Getting a 40% reduction out of ANY SUPPRESSOR would be remarkable. 40db reduction on a .22lr (155db down to 115db) is really pushing it, let alone 40% which would take it down to 93db.....unheard of.
BUTCHER45
Member
I said "I believe" they are impossible to suppress. I don't KNOW IT. It is what I gather from speaking to some guys that build the more powerful bigbore air rifles.
You will see all sorts of suppressed small bore air rifles out there. I've seen them shrouded up to .308 but I don't know how effective it is. I have seen .22 and .25 caliber air rifles suppressed VERY effectively with shrouds, to where the impact of the pellet is louder than the rifle.
It was mentioned to me that the volume of air the powerful bigbore airguns put out is an obstacle. Something about the blast not dissipating quickly like a powder burner. My rifle operates on a 3000psi fill....the .58 uses a 4000-4500psi fill.
How far from the muzzle will the blast of a centerfire lay-down grass when shooting prone? It's several feet with a moderately-powered bigbore like mine....likely quite a bit further with that .58. I need to put the chrony about eight to ten feet away from my muzzle to prevent the airblast from messing with the reading.
You will see all sorts of suppressed small bore air rifles out there. I've seen them shrouded up to .308 but I don't know how effective it is. I have seen .22 and .25 caliber air rifles suppressed VERY effectively with shrouds, to where the impact of the pellet is louder than the rifle.
It was mentioned to me that the volume of air the powerful bigbore airguns put out is an obstacle. Something about the blast not dissipating quickly like a powder burner. My rifle operates on a 3000psi fill....the .58 uses a 4000-4500psi fill.
How far from the muzzle will the blast of a centerfire lay-down grass when shooting prone? It's several feet with a moderately-powered bigbore like mine....likely quite a bit further with that .58. I need to put the chrony about eight to ten feet away from my muzzle to prevent the airblast from messing with the reading.
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BUTCHER45
Member
Originally Posted By: cbass16I can believe that...I've never heard a big bore air rifle so I have no idea, but with that amount of air release it's got to be loud...but "loud" is a relative concept.
How does the noise compare to a .50bmg or a .50 muzzle loader?
Couldn't tell ya'. The most powerful bigbore airgun I have personally shot was a 600fpe .45 shooting a 500grainer. I was shooting in a wooded area....roughly as loud as a sub-sonic .45acp.
How does the noise compare to a .50bmg or a .50 muzzle loader?
Couldn't tell ya'. The most powerful bigbore airgun I have personally shot was a 600fpe .45 shooting a 500grainer. I was shooting in a wooded area....roughly as loud as a sub-sonic .45acp.
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Rocky1
New member
Not legal in North Dakota gun season, must be "center-fire cartridge 22 cal. or larger." Not sure about language in primitive weapons though... maybe.
How exactly do you charge these things? I assume they don't cock with the barrel, as smaller calibers do. Would be tough to break that one back, I'd think. Make a big hole in a cottontail though!! (o:?
How exactly do you charge these things? I assume they don't cock with the barrel, as smaller calibers do. Would be tough to break that one back, I'd think. Make a big hole in a cottontail though!! (o:?
BUTCHER45
Member
Originally Posted By: Irish_80It has an air chamber that you pressurize to something like 3000 or 4000 psi with an external pump.
Pump won't cut it with the .58 Ranger shooting full power @4000-4500psi....pumps are only capable of about 3500psi (which is plenty enough for many bigbore airguns). Any higher requires a 4500psi SCBA tank.
Most bigbore airguns will give you 2-6 good shots with a finisher shot or two on a single fill of air depending on the power level, the pressure of the fill, and the size of the air reservoir.
Pump won't cut it with the .58 Ranger shooting full power @4000-4500psi....pumps are only capable of about 3500psi (which is plenty enough for many bigbore airguns). Any higher requires a 4500psi SCBA tank.
Most bigbore airguns will give you 2-6 good shots with a finisher shot or two on a single fill of air depending on the power level, the pressure of the fill, and the size of the air reservoir.
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BUTCHER45
Member
Originally Posted By: Rocky1They do have a video link on the website, noise isn't too bad on the 45, or the 58. That did however lead to video of hog hunting with pellet rifles, and that was worth the trip to youtube!
Rifle noise doesn't get picked up by most cameras very well at all. My own air rifle is way louder in person than on video, and it is a pea-shooter in comparison to that .58Ranger....my rifle sounds about the same on video as that .58 did.
That .58 is very loud in person I'm certain.
Rifle noise doesn't get picked up by most cameras very well at all. My own air rifle is way louder in person than on video, and it is a pea-shooter in comparison to that .58Ranger....my rifle sounds about the same on video as that .58 did.
That .58 is very loud in person I'm certain.
BUTCHER45
Member
Just some food for thought.
820 grain @ 4500 psi - 747 fps = 1016 fpe Sectional Density .348
630 grain @ 4500 psi - 821 fps = 943 fpe Sectional Density .268 (Superior SD compared to a 300grain .44Mag bullet)
433 grain @ 4000 psi - 922 fps = 817 fpe Sectional Density .184
412 grain @ 4000 psi - 943 fps = 813 fpe Sectional Density .175 (same SD as a 250grain .45Colt)
The 412grainer would certainly be OK for any deer at 50 yards don't you think?
Much debate over "killing power" formulas for sure. Whatever anyone may think of them, they may believe one to be more
"in the ballpark" than the others, or maybe even fairly accurate. I know that I have yet to find a ballistic calculator that asks what
propellant is being used. So I'm putting these 300grain@1300fps .44Magnum up in the hopes it may add even a little perspective to what we're speaking of here. I'm just guessing with that .44Mag load but it sounds like a plenty hot load to me so I'll use it for the comparison.
Most should agree a .58 630grainer has good sectional density, momentum, and great penetration potential (superior SD compared to 300grain .44Mag).
So I am running the numbers for the 630grainer@821fps/941fpe.
Comparing the momentum of a 300grain 1300fps .44MAG to that of a 630grain .58@821fps, the .58 scores 73, the .44MAG 55.
DV Formula believes that the 630grain load is good for Black Bear 350-500lbs, and thinks the same of a 300grain.44MAG@1300fps
The Thornily Stopping Power Formula (scored 169) thinks the .58 is good for Lion, Leopard, Grizzly Bear, Brown Bear, and that the .44Mag is good for Black Bear 350-500lbs).
The .58 cores a Taylor KO Value of 43. A 300grain .44Mag@1400fps scores 24.
So in theoretical math land the .58 scores equal to the .44Mag in a few of the "theoretical" formulas, and far exceeds the .44Mag it in the rest.
The momentum calculation and sectional density calculations, however, are not so theoretical. Rough estimations, but good for comparison between two calibers. The .58 edged the .44Mag out in sectional density and stomped it when it came to momentum. Momentum and sectional density seem to me to be key factors in penetration, which is a huge part of what we are after when speaking of any hypothetical Elk load.
Any way you slice it, that rifle is capable of leaving a lethal boo-boo on most any game. The real question for me, is "Will it put lots of Elk blood on the ground?"
820 grain @ 4500 psi - 747 fps = 1016 fpe Sectional Density .348
630 grain @ 4500 psi - 821 fps = 943 fpe Sectional Density .268 (Superior SD compared to a 300grain .44Mag bullet)
433 grain @ 4000 psi - 922 fps = 817 fpe Sectional Density .184
412 grain @ 4000 psi - 943 fps = 813 fpe Sectional Density .175 (same SD as a 250grain .45Colt)
The 412grainer would certainly be OK for any deer at 50 yards don't you think?
Much debate over "killing power" formulas for sure. Whatever anyone may think of them, they may believe one to be more
"in the ballpark" than the others, or maybe even fairly accurate. I know that I have yet to find a ballistic calculator that asks what
propellant is being used. So I'm putting these 300grain@1300fps .44Magnum up in the hopes it may add even a little perspective to what we're speaking of here. I'm just guessing with that .44Mag load but it sounds like a plenty hot load to me so I'll use it for the comparison.
Most should agree a .58 630grainer has good sectional density, momentum, and great penetration potential (superior SD compared to 300grain .44Mag).
So I am running the numbers for the 630grainer@821fps/941fpe.
Comparing the momentum of a 300grain 1300fps .44MAG to that of a 630grain .58@821fps, the .58 scores 73, the .44MAG 55.
DV Formula believes that the 630grain load is good for Black Bear 350-500lbs, and thinks the same of a 300grain.44MAG@1300fps
The Thornily Stopping Power Formula (scored 169) thinks the .58 is good for Lion, Leopard, Grizzly Bear, Brown Bear, and that the .44Mag is good for Black Bear 350-500lbs).
The .58 cores a Taylor KO Value of 43. A 300grain .44Mag@1400fps scores 24.
So in theoretical math land the .58 scores equal to the .44Mag in a few of the "theoretical" formulas, and far exceeds the .44Mag it in the rest.
The momentum calculation and sectional density calculations, however, are not so theoretical. Rough estimations, but good for comparison between two calibers. The .58 edged the .44Mag out in sectional density and stomped it when it came to momentum. Momentum and sectional density seem to me to be key factors in penetration, which is a huge part of what we are after when speaking of any hypothetical Elk load.
Any way you slice it, that rifle is capable of leaving a lethal boo-boo on most any game. The real question for me, is "Will it put lots of Elk blood on the ground?"