Rod Haydel
New member
OK with all the bickering over where "the line" is on other discussions let's have fun. How do you tell the differrence? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
You can always tell an eastern coyote from a western by...
- Thread starter Rod Haydel
- Start date
Byron South
New member
Rod once told me that to call coyotes in South Louisiana you need to put an aaaEEEEE!!!!! on the end of the WAAAAH....WAAAAH.....WAAAAAAH!!! Sounds like this WAAAAAH aaaEEEE!!!!. Got to love them Cajuns /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif. Someone please tell them boys their hunting Western coyotes /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif.
Rod,
Hows that "crawfish in distress" call coming along? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
Byron /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Rod,
Hows that "crawfish in distress" call coming along? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif
Byron /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
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GS
New member
Hey Rod, I just finished watching a DVD documentary done by a masters level graduate student on the Coyote. It was a real interesting History of the Eastern and Western coyote and their evolution.
I used info from studies done in the 70's and 80's for quite a while to give general info at my seminars. Most of the info was from a huge book done by the Ministry of Interior (Resources?) of Ontario (Fur Bearer Management of North America). I evidently need to use more current info because the use of DNA has helped the knowledge and understanding of coyotes leap forward significantly.
There are 35 different sub species of coyotes determined by bone structure and DNA analysis. The documentary tells us that the average weight differences between the Eastern Coyote and the Western cousin makes the Eastern almost double that of the Western. There are some that would probably argue with that figure but I think all would agree that the Eastern is significantly larger....on average. She talks about differences in their fur and other aspects. She makes an argument for the fact that the Red Wolf is actually a hybrid between the Northern wolf and the coyote.Seems as though their DNA is pretty diluted between the two.
There were some tidbits of info that really perked my ears up though. The researcher mentions that the particular breed of Wolves (Algonquin) that seems to have cross bred much more frequently with the coyotes is a very social and not as vocal a breed as the Grey wolf. Could this be a partial answer for the claims that Eastern Coyotes are not as vocal as their Western cousin? If I remember correctly, the Algonquin wolf does not seem to object to others intruding in their territory as much as the Grey wolf. Susequently they are not nearly as vocal with challenge and territorial vocalizations.
The dates that this researcher cites in the evolution of the coyote\wolf hybrids are far older than I have previously heard. She was talikng about 150,000 years ago versus the 400 to 2000 years I had relied on before.
She also had some real good info about the theory of coyotes interbreeding with Domestic dogs. DNA has shown that eastern coyotes have a very small percentage of Domestic DNA in them. A significant percentage have wolf DNA.
I found her documentary to be very balanced and not slanted either way when it comes to the issues of hunting or preservation of coyotes. I figure this post may generate some requests for contact info. I do not have that at my house but I can get it when I get back in the office if you are interested.
I used info from studies done in the 70's and 80's for quite a while to give general info at my seminars. Most of the info was from a huge book done by the Ministry of Interior (Resources?) of Ontario (Fur Bearer Management of North America). I evidently need to use more current info because the use of DNA has helped the knowledge and understanding of coyotes leap forward significantly.
There are 35 different sub species of coyotes determined by bone structure and DNA analysis. The documentary tells us that the average weight differences between the Eastern Coyote and the Western cousin makes the Eastern almost double that of the Western. There are some that would probably argue with that figure but I think all would agree that the Eastern is significantly larger....on average. She talks about differences in their fur and other aspects. She makes an argument for the fact that the Red Wolf is actually a hybrid between the Northern wolf and the coyote.Seems as though their DNA is pretty diluted between the two.
There were some tidbits of info that really perked my ears up though. The researcher mentions that the particular breed of Wolves (Algonquin) that seems to have cross bred much more frequently with the coyotes is a very social and not as vocal a breed as the Grey wolf. Could this be a partial answer for the claims that Eastern Coyotes are not as vocal as their Western cousin? If I remember correctly, the Algonquin wolf does not seem to object to others intruding in their territory as much as the Grey wolf. Susequently they are not nearly as vocal with challenge and territorial vocalizations.
The dates that this researcher cites in the evolution of the coyote\wolf hybrids are far older than I have previously heard. She was talikng about 150,000 years ago versus the 400 to 2000 years I had relied on before.
She also had some real good info about the theory of coyotes interbreeding with Domestic dogs. DNA has shown that eastern coyotes have a very small percentage of Domestic DNA in them. A significant percentage have wolf DNA.
I found her documentary to be very balanced and not slanted either way when it comes to the issues of hunting or preservation of coyotes. I figure this post may generate some requests for contact info. I do not have that at my house but I can get it when I get back in the office if you are interested.
Can't say about the Eastern coyotes.
But [central]Iowa coyotes are the smartest of them ALL /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif. As they attend night school...[Jarverd, I think? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif]. Et raise their Left pinky, before munching wabbits or feral catz /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif.
But [central]Iowa coyotes are the smartest of them ALL /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif. As they attend night school...[Jarverd, I think? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif]. Et raise their Left pinky, before munching wabbits or feral catz /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif.
TheHuntedOne
New member
I would be extremely interested in this. If you might post the info here, or if I could perhaps E mail you for it.
Thank you for posting this information. Now I can do some research on this Algonquin Wolf.
Al
Thank you for posting this information. Now I can do some research on this Algonquin Wolf.
Al
Rod Haydel
New member
I figured the coressponding side hung lower due to the gravitational pull.
Gerald that was interesting. I did intend for it to just poke fun at the "OTHER" side though for late night reading. Byron knows what I mean, by the way Byron, I will have first run parts to test out early next week.
You know what that means! Hopefully I learnt my lesson Sun. and won't ride the charging handle forward again trying to be quite. Thanks for backing me up Byron!
Gerald that was interesting. I did intend for it to just poke fun at the "OTHER" side though for late night reading. Byron knows what I mean, by the way Byron, I will have first run parts to test out early next week.
You know what that means! Hopefully I learnt my lesson Sun. and won't ride the charging handle forward again trying to be quite. Thanks for backing me up Byron!
Byron South
New member
Gerald,
I've been reading quite a bit about the "Eastern coyotes" as well. Your information seems to coincide with what I've been reading. The Red Wolf has always facinated me and have believed for years thet the coyotes I grew up hunting here in East Texas were cross's with wolf. After reading more studies on the red wolf I wonder if it is not like you said, just a cross between gray's and coyotes. I read somewhere where DNA was extracted from some very old red wolf remains stored in the Smithsonian and the results showed clues that they could just be hybrid gray wolf-coyotes. Intersting stuff for sure. One thing that I'm sure of is that they are bigger on average. I kill coyotes every year here in East Texas that will go over 40lbs with the occational coyote topping 50 pounds. I can drive 300 miles West and the coyotes will do good to weigh 35lbs. As far as vocalizations go they are different as well. I have long believed this is because of a combination of things. The biggest thing is, I don't believe the competition between coyotes here are as big a deal as it is out West, another factor is I believe they have learned to keep a lower profile in order to survive. To many this may sound like useless information but as hunters the more we understand our foe the better prepared were are to hunt him. One thing that they(coyotes or any predator for that matter)ANYWHERE all have in common is that are predators and they will respond to distress calls. Heck that's what they do for a living. If you find a link to the information you mentioned we sure would enjoy it.
Rod,
Did you figure in the earths rotation. That could throw it all out of kilter /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif. Looking forward to trying out the new "parts". I knew when I didn't here the gun go bang it was time to make mine go bang. Thanks for letting me back you up. Had fun. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Byron
I've been reading quite a bit about the "Eastern coyotes" as well. Your information seems to coincide with what I've been reading. The Red Wolf has always facinated me and have believed for years thet the coyotes I grew up hunting here in East Texas were cross's with wolf. After reading more studies on the red wolf I wonder if it is not like you said, just a cross between gray's and coyotes. I read somewhere where DNA was extracted from some very old red wolf remains stored in the Smithsonian and the results showed clues that they could just be hybrid gray wolf-coyotes. Intersting stuff for sure. One thing that I'm sure of is that they are bigger on average. I kill coyotes every year here in East Texas that will go over 40lbs with the occational coyote topping 50 pounds. I can drive 300 miles West and the coyotes will do good to weigh 35lbs. As far as vocalizations go they are different as well. I have long believed this is because of a combination of things. The biggest thing is, I don't believe the competition between coyotes here are as big a deal as it is out West, another factor is I believe they have learned to keep a lower profile in order to survive. To many this may sound like useless information but as hunters the more we understand our foe the better prepared were are to hunt him. One thing that they(coyotes or any predator for that matter)ANYWHERE all have in common is that are predators and they will respond to distress calls. Heck that's what they do for a living. If you find a link to the information you mentioned we sure would enjoy it.
Rod,
Did you figure in the earths rotation. That could throw it all out of kilter /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif. Looking forward to trying out the new "parts". I knew when I didn't here the gun go bang it was time to make mine go bang. Thanks for letting me back you up. Had fun. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Byron
Jimmie in Ky
New member
Getrald, I definately want more info. I tried like the dickens to get such a study done in the LBL last spring.I have a geographical link to those far north easterns and a lot of strange colors and markings for coyotes there in the LBL. There are other oddities as well such as the tendancy toward pack hunting, more so than anywhere else I've seen.
I've taken a white and seen several other colors and heard of blacks as well on a regular basis. I want that black bad but haven't located it yet! Access to that part of the LBL is limited to say the least!
I don't know about north of the mason dixon line but around here a howl has a southun drawl to it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gifJimmie
I've taken a white and seen several other colors and heard of blacks as well on a regular basis. I want that black bad but haven't located it yet! Access to that part of the LBL is limited to say the least!
I don't know about north of the mason dixon line but around here a howl has a southun drawl to it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gifJimmie
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/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif I have traveled our great country and this is what I gather about coyote call's in differant part's.
Far West - More of a " hey.......Duuuuuude"
Near San Fran. Calf.- More of a "ouieeeee with a lisp"(and the yotes there walk funny)
Cajun yote call- surely a "boooooo- YA !"
Texas large city - " wan-a-be-cow-boooooy"
West Texas - "real cowboooooy"
Great Lakes, Pa.,Upstate NY (rust belt) Kind of a Harley Davidson drunk keg party,industrial call- "woooo-eee"
East Coast Urban , more of a in your face bark challenge bark howl- "ruff,ruff, raaaaaauff!"
Southeast- "dang-nab-it- ya-aaallll or the rebel yell if in the "real south" (where ever that is /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif) "
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Far West - More of a " hey.......Duuuuuude"
Near San Fran. Calf.- More of a "ouieeeee with a lisp"(and the yotes there walk funny)
Cajun yote call- surely a "boooooo- YA !"
Texas large city - " wan-a-be-cow-boooooy"
West Texas - "real cowboooooy"
Great Lakes, Pa.,Upstate NY (rust belt) Kind of a Harley Davidson drunk keg party,industrial call- "woooo-eee"
East Coast Urban , more of a in your face bark challenge bark howl- "ruff,ruff, raaaaaauff!"
Southeast- "dang-nab-it- ya-aaallll or the rebel yell if in the "real south" (where ever that is /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif) "
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
TheHuntedOne
New member
The ones in Mass sound like this
"Did John Kerry get a huntin' license here?"
"Did John Kerry get a huntin' license here?"
GS
New member
I have hunted your strange coyotes over there in the land of palmettoes and mosquitoes Rod. I spent three days with the legendary Bill Jordan of Texas Border Patrol fame. We called some of the most inbred coyotes I have ever seen. You should be very careful about getting into a discussion about Eastern and Western coyotes because I am not sure that Cajun coyotes fit in with either. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Hey Byron, I think it is entirely correct to assume that has happened in East texas. Our Ct 168 CoyWolf cassette is of a coyote red wolf hybrid that was one of the last to be around according to our local Zoo official. If I can get some postable pictures of him you will see that many of his facial and body bone structure has the markings of a wolf but he also has a very close likness of a coyote. I also think back to a picture in the local paper in Weimar Texas in the early 90's of a 50 lb "coyote" that sure looked wolfish to me.
I am sending the researcher an email today for contact and purchase info. I am assuming it will be available to the general public. It was her Masters thesis work. If my memory serves me right I think she comes from a hunting family back ground but is middle of the road on that issue. She is from PA and even uses some footage from the Mosquito Creek hunt weigh in.
I do not know exactly how she will want her contact info given out but she may not want it posted here for all of the possible negative reactions that could occur from both sides of the issue.
In the immortal words of Arnold...."I'll be back".
Hey Byron, I think it is entirely correct to assume that has happened in East texas. Our Ct 168 CoyWolf cassette is of a coyote red wolf hybrid that was one of the last to be around according to our local Zoo official. If I can get some postable pictures of him you will see that many of his facial and body bone structure has the markings of a wolf but he also has a very close likness of a coyote. I also think back to a picture in the local paper in Weimar Texas in the early 90's of a 50 lb "coyote" that sure looked wolfish to me.
I am sending the researcher an email today for contact and purchase info. I am assuming it will be available to the general public. It was her Masters thesis work. If my memory serves me right I think she comes from a hunting family back ground but is middle of the road on that issue. She is from PA and even uses some footage from the Mosquito Creek hunt weigh in.
I do not know exactly how she will want her contact info given out but she may not want it posted here for all of the possible negative reactions that could occur from both sides of the issue.
In the immortal words of Arnold...."I'll be back".
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TheHuntedOne
New member
Yes, some of them do look "wolfish". We posted a picture of one DOD shot a few years ago and some thought it might have been a wolf. That could not possably be because there are "no wolves in New Hampshire" so says the Fish and Game. None. No mountain lions either.
So what are you going to do when you see one?
So what are you going to do when you see one?
GS
New member
According to the research she cites, coyotes did not inner breed much with the Greys, only the Algonquin and a Parks wolf? They readily bred with those two. She mentions the differences in the Eastern coyote's pelt compared to the Western also.
Sorry to have hyjacked your attempt at some humor Rod. I guess these guys can be serious every now and then. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Sorry to have hyjacked your attempt at some humor Rod. I guess these guys can be serious every now and then. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
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Byron South
New member
Here you go Jimmy.
I have also noticed more of a pack mentality in the Eastern coyotes. I have some cool footage of a pack (10 coyotes, one of which is black) all traveling together.
Gerald,
I used to read all of Bill Jordans stuff. Did he shoot the coyotes with his S&W 19? Here is a picture of a coyote we killed a couple of years ago that weighed 50#'s
Byron
I have also noticed more of a pack mentality in the Eastern coyotes. I have some cool footage of a pack (10 coyotes, one of which is black) all traveling together.
Gerald,
I used to read all of Bill Jordans stuff. Did he shoot the coyotes with his S&W 19? Here is a picture of a coyote we killed a couple of years ago that weighed 50#'s
Byron