You can always tell an eastern coyote from a western by...

Byron - texans ... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif ... buddy when comparing eastern coyotes to western coyotes I don't believe they were talking about east Texas verses west Texas. I hate to say it but when refering to east verses west Texas all of Texas is west.

I've said it before and I'm sure I'll say it again. I grew up in upstate New York when the big ol' eastern coyote really took over. Those eastern coyotes were a much different breed of cat. Sure they can be called the same as any other coyote. Some were very coyote like and some were even more wolf like. And the young ones would howl like crazy when a train or noone fire whistle would blow.
 
I think you'll find more lighter-tail-tipped coyotes in the east as well as more blacks.
Most western coyotes I've seen on the hunt tapes have had dark tipped tails....
 
Here read this http://www.wildlifetech.com/pages/necoyote.htm

on the Eastern coyote / wolf. We see them 50 pounds here common. We also have pictures from a trail cam of a male that's a good 70's.

Ontario is only 100 miles North..........

Something else the howls around my home are deeper than the high pitch howlers they sell over the counter. Adults do pack more also.

You see two types here.......
 
Michael,
Coyotes and coyote hunting in East TEXAS is not much different than in most places in the East, if any. Your right that people don't think of Texas when they think of Eastern coyotes, but most people assume Texas is all like West Texas. It ain't /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif. Got a map /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif? Eastern coyotes even Eastern Texas coyotes are a different breed than the Western and West Texas coyotes. While growing up I always heard "Ft. Worth is where the West begins". You’re also right in that they all respond to calls, just not all the time, or every time. I can't prove it but I have a sneaky suspicion that coyotes can't read maps /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif. They have no idea where they live, they just adapt to survive under the conditions they find their selves in. Coyotes here in East TEXAS exhibit the same physical characteristics you mentioned about the upstate NY coyotes. Some look very wolf like and others more coyote like. They are different in other ways as well but most of these don't hinder their eagerness to eat a dying rabbit. It both tickles me and frustrates me that people assume when traveling west and cross into Texas that the coyote’s miraculously change. It also is very frustrating to have people assume that since I'm from Texas I got it easy and deal with stupid coyotes everyday. Man do I wish that were so. Well, not rarely, the challenge is what has kept in interesting all these years. I have also heard for years that the Eastern Coyotes range begins at the Mississippi. How do guys on the West bank feel about this? Are they hunting WESTERN coyote? I don't think you'll convince them they are. These are all imaginary lines placed by humans and the coyote could care less. Sure there are differences in coyotes in many places but when it all boils down they are still coyotes, or maybe they are coywolves. Who knows?

Rod,

See what you’ve done. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif

Byron /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
Ya know what y'all?? I'm so sick of you guys ignoring me and the Great Northern Coyote, like I'm not even in the room. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Eastern coyotes,,,western coyotes...western coyotes ....eastern coyotes!!!!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif

Ever heard of a Great Northern Coyote?? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif No I guess not! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif It's all about y'all, right?

Well we do have coyotes in the Great White North.
And they are tough
And they are sly
And they are buff
And they are Fly /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

coyote_sheep_leap.jpg


So when y'all are talking about THE coyote, y'all must be refering to the challenge of the North.
The Great Canadian coyote!!!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif


oooooowwwwwwwwoooooeooo ........Eh?

buddysite005481jn.gif
 
Byron,
I agree coyotes can’t read maps and you are probably correct in saying that there are 2 species located in Texas (big area east - west) but you are wrong in comparing them to the eastern coyote (canis latrans var). Many wildlife biologists state the dividing line as the Ohio valley and not the Mississippi River (even further east). I hear many people say a coyote is a coyote, this is true. A dog is also a dog, but most Golden Retrievers are a tad smarter than a Dalmatian. There are 19 or so sub-species of coyotes spread across North America and I feel somewhat positive stating that one is smarter than the other??? There is a difference but that is just my 2 cents.
 
CBGC

I hear what your saying. Your's are smarter. In fact I'd be willing to wager that the PA coyotes are the smartest coyotes in the world. They just got to be. By the way I believe Texas has at least three subspecies of coyote.

Mr. Frog,

Canadian coyotes don't count, well not until October. Save some for me.

Damn you Rod!! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif

Byron /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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The best way to tell the difference between the two is look at'em from behind /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif. The eastern ones are straight legged and the western ones are bow legged /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grinning-smiley-003.gif. The western ones get that way from riding livestock /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif. They don't eat hogs though cuz they can't ketch'em, hog will run between their legs /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused1.gif. That's a fact! Would I lie to you guys /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smiliesmack.gif?
 
Hey Byron, that 50 lb coyote looks just like the Weimar Coyote that was 55lbs. I hope I can get the contact info for you guys. Much of what is said on this thread will tie into what she maintains in her thesis work. She mentions the eating patterns and reasons why domestic dogs just don't show up in the coyotes DNA like everyone thought they should. If she is an anti then maybe she has sucked me in but I did not find any indication that she was making an arguement for not hunting coyotes because they have wolf DNA in them. Interesting conversation fella's.
 
Hey GS, If you get the name of that student, and the University they attended, the thesis is online. I can pull it up via a university link (assuming it was completed with the past few years as electronic thesis didn't start until recently.
 
Gerald,

You can inform her. That feral dogs have been seen running with coyotes in Iowa. My Dad has seen this, I never have.

One farmer, who's land I hunt. Told me his large male Black Lab has played tag [rolling around frolicking]with coyotes in the field next to the farmsted. He also told me. This same dog has [battled coyotes] viciously in the same area.

One day, My Dad seen a Husky[dog] fighting a coyote, while standing on their hind legs. Right in front of a farm house.

I have spoke before of seeing a handful of canines. That were neither[IMO] coyote nor wolf. Some were in the 50-60lb range. A couple of others over 60lbs. Dont' know what the heck they are. I have referred to them as [coydogs]. Because they all looked different[Not like a wolf-coyote X].
 
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Byron, ttttthhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

It may seem strange to some but the possible and probable migration patterns have always interested me since I saw my first walking through a mans yard one night coming home from coon hunting.

When ya spend some time looking at the maps and do a little thinking you begin to see patterns and possibilities.Funny that records show they apeared about the same time at both ends of hte state but nothing in the middle of it for years afterward.You see physical diferences in one area but not the other areas nearby.Even unusual behaviors. Makes a man ask questions and look for answers to them. Is the habitat the cause of the behaviors or something genetic? What genetic trait exist's to cause the odd colors? Is the physical diference caused by the diet or genetics? Lot's of questions!!

Is one group smarter than the other? NOPE, they all learn to survive in each new habitat they enter.If any animals come close to being as adaptable as man, this is it! They will eat anything and everything in order to survive. Like man they can live anywhere. Jimmie
 
Kirby, I don't think she asserts that they don't do it. I think it is a matter of it not being to the degree that people think it does. For years guys have used that as a possible explaination for the size and color differences. DNA studies evidently do not support that theory if you can believe the studies and the people she relies on.

I have seen some really strange looking coyotes that I believe were likely to have some domestic in them. I believe it happens , just don't know to what degree.

She has some interesting comments about estrus cycle and other factors that push the domestic influence out pretty quickly. There were some comments made that jumped out at me which made me wonder if the eating preferences of the wolf influence may be a possible reason for Eastern coyotes not responding well to the sounds of smaller prey species. It made me wonder if any of you guys in the Northeast have noticed any better success with the use of larger species distress cries (deer distress, goat, pig ect.)? Do you even try the larger species distress recordings?

I have maintained that pure wolves as a species, by nature are not as callable as pure coyotes are. Could the wolf influence in the hybrids be a factor, along with others,in the difficulty many have with getting Eastern "coyotes" to respond?
 
After reading all these posts and the debate about the differences between the Eastern and Western Coyote many questions pop into my head. I have hunted game for 35 years but mostly in one state; Maine. I have hunted many different types of terrain from mountainous to flat farmland.

The one thing I have learned is that terrain, animal population, food supply and competition, and human pressure have more to do with how game react than anything else.

I believe we only have one species of Whitetail deer in this state, but you would swear that the deer in our mountains are a totally different animal compared to the deer located around our more populated areas in this state or even deer around farmland. The deer in the mountains seem much smarter. I often run into hunters that are "from away" and they brag about how many deer they shoot in Conneticut or Massachusetts.

Then they hunt deer in the mountains and don't have ANY success. I'm sure they are good hunters, they just haven't adapted their hunting style to fit the terrain and feeding patterns that the deer use in this colder, harsher, more remote environment.

So do we have more than one species of deer?

Are the deer in the mountains smarter than deer in other areas of the state?

What seems to make sense to me is that when hunting it's more important to learn the habits and adapt to the terrain than it is to debate who has smarter animals or dumber ones.

I would think that human and animal population(density), terrain, competition and food supply, human pressure are what make one coyote act different from another. These are just my thoughts....not meant to offend anyone.

I, for one, understand where Byron and others are coming from and I'm anxious to watch his new video.

It's pretty thick up here in Maine, and I'm sure I'll be able to apply some of Byron's techniques of calling coyotes in "East Texas" in thick cover to our "Eastern" coyotes up here in woods of Maine.

Just my opinion...

I find these discussions to be very enlightening....and feel that I can learn something from anyone, whether they've hunted for 50 years or for only 2 days.....
 
Gerald, I think that what coyotes respond to is a bit like Pavlov's dog. If they have been a part of or caused this sound to be made then they respond well to it. If you remember I had no luck at all with some sounds you sent me several years ago. I tried these in my normal haunts where small prey is hte norm in coyote diet.

After a great deal of work in the LBL this past winter and a lot of new discoveries I intend to put that doe bawl to the test again with these pack hunters.Some groups there are taking an adult deer per week. I had to take the biologist out and show him to prove it to him. He aged the jawbone at one scene to be that of a five year old deer.There were six kill sites in that one valley alone! This is what brings up the question of diet being responsible for physical diferences in this one group of animals.

These same animals also respond very well to territorial sounds. Often very agressively and as a group.I also found evidence where they had torn more than one coyote to pieces during dispersal and mating seasons. One was spread over the length of a football field.I have never found this outside of the LBL.

The Lbl is at the end of a ridgeline extending from the Apalachians between the Cumberland and Tennessee rivers. It is almost completely landlocked.For all practical purposes this is a closed environmet where inbreeding may be a part of the norm concentrating these odd genes. No way to be sure until we can get someone to test them. Jimmie
 
GS, Jimmy, Byron etc.. what is considered pack hunting ? Would you consider 6 or more yote comin in at once a type of pack hunting or just wanting the food first ?
When this happened we were using a noise similar to a fawn distress.

Great topic, thanks for sharing

Vic
 
I've hunted 'yotes in Colorado (lived there 5 years) and noticed a marked difference between the "plains" coyotes that inhabited the prairies east of the mountains (I-25) and the mountain coyotes which were as large as the eastern coyotes. None of them seemed particularly smart and were very easy to call with any ole' dying rabbit scream.

West Texas coyotes seemed to be very similar to the plains coyotes of Colorado.

I've hunted them in Illinois on the family farm and these yotes were quite large and very cagey. Probably from hunting pressure due to livestock predation (real or imagined).

But... The danged Florida coyote is different than any I've seen or hunted anywhere. Almost always red in color with blond highlights they are extremely sneaky and seem to have little interest in any sounds but a fawn in distress call. They seem to work alone but it's so hard to actually see one I often wonder if maybe I'm missing the others.

They're fairly numerous here because nobody seems interested in hunting them and our mature does are usually only about 110-125lbs and with the 'yotes averaging (wild guess) 45-55 pounds it's easy to chase off "Mom" while hamstringing "Junior".

Intelligence is a matter of perception and the coyote's natural advantages such as heavy forest and underbrush gives them a huge adavantage due to their nose's sensitivity. Open prairies make them primarily sight and sound hunters and humans almost always win that game.

As far as the howl??? The Florida coyote says... Yip.. Yip... You'all....

$bob$
 
To me pack hunting is where one or more drives the prey and the rest set up the ambush. Or coming as a group to a stimulus. I have been the victim of both manuvers. The pincer move used to start the prey running is the one I can't wrap my head around to take them out. The best move so far is to put the shooter well down wind of the caller. But even this runs the risk of being downwinded most of the time. The driver moves so far out to pinpoint the source of the sound. Keekee has witnessed this one several times himself. JImmie
 
GS has referred to a documentary movie in his postings within this thread. I believe that he is referencing the movie "Spirit Dog" produced for a Masters Thesis by Tracy Graziano, which was down loaded in 6 parts onto YouTube, here is what coyotegyrl who posted the film included in her remarks section.

"Spirit Dog: America's Little Wolf" was created as a thesis film project for the Montana State University Science & Natural History Filmmaking Master of Fine Arts program. "Spirit Dog" compares Eastern and Western coyotes, and interweaves Native American Trickster stories.
Over the past 100 years, coyotes have expanded their range to include the Eastern US, Eastern Canada and southern Mexico. Eastern coyotes differ from their western cousins in several ways: behaviorally, developmentally, and physically. Eastern coyotes weigh up to twice as much as their western cousins. What are the reasons for this size difference? Diet? Habitat? Genetics? In 2001, a study completed by a large group of scientists came to a long-suspected conclusion. The findings have implications not only for the Eastern coyote, but also for the coyote's cousin: the wolf. The genetic research will change plans for wolf recovery in the northeast, and the entire Canid family evolutionary history. (c) 2005 Moonfire Film Productions.

All six parts of the Spirit Dog documentary can be accessed via this weblink - http://www.youtube.com/user/coyotegyrl

Regards - Michael
 
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