1/4 Inch Groups

H

HOGGHEAD

New member
I do not mean to pick on anybody. But I have noticed that there is a lot of guys who are shooting quarter inch 5 shot groups with factory rifles right out of the box?? I find this incredible.

I have been shooting for over 35 years and I have never had a rifle that would average 1/4 inch groups at 100 yards. I have a new 22-250 that I have $2200 in the rifle(not the scope). It will average in the .3's with an occasional high .2, and the occasional low .4. I do not doubt that a better shooter might ring a little more accuracy out of my new rifle, I can live with that.

Now I realize that I am not a bench rest shooter. I am a hunter(not a shooter). But I do my fair share of shooting. And I have been watching 1,000's of other people shoot all my life. I have never seen a shooter average 1/4 inch 5 shot groups from a factory rifle out of the box.

Sometimes I just have to call BS??

I wonder if some people actually know what a 1/4 inch group is. If you are shooting a .223 then there can not be any paper between the bullet holes in order to be a 1/4 inch group!! So they have to be averaging a ragged hole at 100 yards every time?? From a $400 rifle and a $100 scope?? Come on??

By the way I do go to benchrest shoots. And I have seen benchrest shooters that shoot some incredible groups. At incredible distances. I shoot at a 1,000 range and some of those guys are incredible. But I have never seen them pull out the first out of the box rifle. These guys have some REAL money in some of their rigs. Tom.
 
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Tom,
All anyone has to do is take this target here:
PMmemberstarget001.jpg

and shoot five groups in row @ 100yds with a witness.

Then they can post a pic of the target here in this forum so we can indeed see for ourselves. After all, actions always have spoken louder than words, right?

The target is available for download FREE, at this link...
PM target
 
you have to realize many guys spout off internet groups, I have a couple factory rifles that have produced a couple 1/4" groups each, however they don't do it all the time, I think people with guns like this is the same who claim to have a 1/4 moa factory rifle.

the problem is most people don't work up loads with the ladder method, so in that case they usually will find something that works really well, however if they shoot it at 30 degrees the groups will not be nearly as tight, because they got a tight group when it was 75 degrees outside, I have only owned 2 factory rifles that are capable of .5 moa groups with regularity, a tikka 30-06 and a CZ varmint 223.

I have one rifle that I used the ladder method on, its a custom with all the tricks and built by a big name smith, it shoots in the 3's but I feel confident that it will shoot that good in a variety of conditions, most people who reload on this site do so for a coyote rifle, a coyote rifle is actually kind of a demanding situation to find a load for, it normally doesn't have the heaviest barrel in the world, however the load must perform at 10 degrees or 75 degrees when you jump out of the truck for a stop and pop, most would be better served with a more forgiving load,
 
The answer to your question is actually quite simple.
It's the internet.. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
FWIW
I was asked to help out by measuring targets and scoring them at a BR match yesterday at our local range.
The winning agg was .486 in the Varmint for score division with targets shot at 100 and 200.
It was windy and cold, and far from ideal shooting conditions and I was pretty suprised to see scores that good but some of those guys can dope a 25mph wing like it isn't even there.
Still a long ways from "quarter inch all day long". These rifles are also a long ways from factory "out of the box" and were shot by guys that are very experienced and dedicated... Out of 18 guns there wasn't a quarter inch group shot all day.
Guess that's the difference between the real world and the internet.

Oh Yea,,,,,, Just having the correct tools and knowing how to measure those internet groups would drastically increase their sizes too.
 
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Sometimes I just have to call BS??






Ever since Al Gore invented the internet he has made it possible to anything to happen.

Having bragging rights on the internet is like dating an ugly girl...sooner or later the people who know you will find out the truth.
 
i dont know what a 1/4inch group looks like i dont know the measurements for them but my remintgon shoot a three group shot thouching out of the box with factory ammo and will shoot three shots in one big ragged hole at 100yrd with reloads its a .308 it has had nothing done to it but the trigger ajg down but its got a x trigger in it
 
Grizz here. And I gots to agree. I've been shooting and reloading for 30 years. And only once have I shot a five shot group at .235 center to center at 100 yards no fliers with my accurized Sako 22-250. Shot many groups at .365 .390, ect and up with 22-250s and 220 Swifts, but .250 groups out of some of the cheap factory guns I see mentioned here, Bullhit!
 
Hey, it's the internet!!! Actually, I just read a couple things in one of the responses that completely verify most internet tall tales.

Here is what you do...set up a target at a 100 yards, then shoot, shoot and shoot at it, the more the better. Then walk up to the target with a marks-a-lot and start circling all the holes that are touching...them are the tight groups (disregard all the others since they were fliers and didn't count). There you go; I'd imagine the more you shoot at that target the better the chance for some fine looking groups.
 
Yeah,There was a guy here last winter claiming his Steven's 200 was shooting 1/4" group's with Winchester White Box ammo.

It sparked a debate of course,then how one measure's group's & that was another debate.

Man i'm sure glad i never get caught up in those debate's /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif
 
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wouldnt you have to go to like .204 or something to get that small


Center to center. You measure the group at it's widest spread, then subtract the bullet diameter.
 
Guys,

I have several high dollar precision smithed benchrest rifles and even from the bench with a $800 front rest and $1500 Nightforce scope it is unlikely for me to shoot 1/4" groups all day... just NOT going to happen regardless of the equipment or shooter.

Now, 1/2" or even 1"... well, maybe! Not too many factory rifles will even shoot 1" and certainly not all day! LOL Like has been said, the internet is a wonderful place for self promotion!(Look... I just did it in the first part of my post!!!!!LOL)

I've watched Tony Boyer and Ron Hoehn shoot those kind of groups but they certainly weren't using a factory rifle!

Nikonut /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
O.K. lets clear something up first, do we measure center to center or outside to outside? First we all need to agree on one or the other! This sounds like a challenge to me and my factory Savage!
 
Internet groups are my favorite. I agree with the rest of yall. All you have to do is watch this forum for 1 day and you will see at least 3 factory rifles that will shoot 1/4 in groups. I think that people shoot 5 shots and take the best 3. Thats the only way I could see all these 1/4 in groups.
 
Quote:
O.K. lets clear something up first, do we measure center to center or outside to outside? First we all need to agree on one or the other! This sounds like a challenge to me and my factory Savage!




There is only one accepted way to measure a group, and Grizzly explained it perfectly.

And NO, I did not start this post to present any challenges. I just started this so I could vent a little frustration about internet groups, without picking on any one individual. Tom.
 
This makes me feel better. I have always been ashamed of my groups because of all the folks that say they have these sub .5" groups.

I try to go the the shooting range once a month (haven't been able to make it that much lately). I have shot a few sub .5" groups (but only 3 shot groups). I have never shot a 100 yard 5 shot group under a half inch in my life. I have factory barrels and use Leupold/Bushnell/Simmons scopes.

I love to shoot but I am a hunter at heart. I am happy when I can keep them under a .75" at a hundred yards. To be honest with you, the optics on my scopes don't even produce a sight picture good enough to get below .5". If I hit a group that small it is pure luck.
 
Just for the sake of discussion, I think it boils down to how the shots are taken...I think there is a big difference between the ability of the weapon and ammunition, and the ability of the shooter..

Personally, if I'm working on loads, my rifle is stabilized mechanically as well as I can make it happen...and they will produce some impressive groups, depending on the load.

By stabilized, I mean that I'm using a Lead Sled that is strapped down to the concrete bench, the rifle is strapped down to the sled, and my involvement is simply nudging the trigger, with as little human factor involved as possible..and if the load is the right one, it will produce 1/4" groups....That is not what I consider "shot groups"...

That's not to say that I can shoot those kind of groups off of a rest with bags or in anyway freehand... but if I know that my ammo is matched to the weapon, and it is capable of shooting well, then I know that any deviation is my personal problem, and that's my starting point...

I learned a long time ago that you can't make a 'silk purse' out of a sow's ear....and when I was shooting handgun competitions for the police pistol team... there was a big difference between the custom match pistols with matched ammo and the normal duty revolver and factory loads...

If the equipment wasn't first rate, the shooter couldn't look good under most conditions...
 


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