1/4 Inch Groups
- Thread starter HOGGHEAD
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kyotekiller25
Well-known member
Depends on if its 3 or 5 shots IMO. Also depends on if they say ALL DAY or not, lol.
Everyone knows its a heck of a lot easier to get .25" 3 shot groups then it is with 5 shots. I've maybe only shot 1 5 shot group that went .25" and thats with my .222 rem that is a factory rem 700.
I've shot plenty of .25" 3 shot groups at 100 yards with a few different factory rem 700's. Mainly from my .222 rem, but a couple with 25-06 and 7 RM to. Even shot a couple in the .1's with the triple deuce and even a group in the .0's with the 25-06, all 3 shot groups, but with factory rifles none the less. ONly thing done to them is trigger jobs and fed what they like off a bench rest with no wind. It doesn't happen every time I take them out, but it happens often enough that I'm not surprised anymore.
My wife can take my .222 and hit the 10" gong every time at 300 yards off the hood of my truck using a harris bipod. Thats a decent shot for 90% of the people out there that shoot, let alone someone that does no shooting at all.
I'm both a hunter and a shooter, I like my rifles to stay around 1/2-3/4 MOA out to 600 yards on a good day for 3 shots. If they do that, which mine usually do, I'm a happy camper.
Everyone knows its a heck of a lot easier to get .25" 3 shot groups then it is with 5 shots. I've maybe only shot 1 5 shot group that went .25" and thats with my .222 rem that is a factory rem 700.
I've shot plenty of .25" 3 shot groups at 100 yards with a few different factory rem 700's. Mainly from my .222 rem, but a couple with 25-06 and 7 RM to. Even shot a couple in the .1's with the triple deuce and even a group in the .0's with the 25-06, all 3 shot groups, but with factory rifles none the less. ONly thing done to them is trigger jobs and fed what they like off a bench rest with no wind. It doesn't happen every time I take them out, but it happens often enough that I'm not surprised anymore.
My wife can take my .222 and hit the 10" gong every time at 300 yards off the hood of my truck using a harris bipod. Thats a decent shot for 90% of the people out there that shoot, let alone someone that does no shooting at all.
I'm both a hunter and a shooter, I like my rifles to stay around 1/2-3/4 MOA out to 600 yards on a good day for 3 shots. If they do that, which mine usually do, I'm a happy camper.
Rick James
New member
I think there are a lot more 1/4" all day long guns out there than people realize, the main problem is that there aren't many 1/4" all day long shooters that own them. I don't think a large percentage of guns coming off the shelf can do this, but I know out of the 25ish guns I've personally owned I've had two. Just MHO. Problem was that even if the gun could do it, I'm only good enough to turn out a group that size maybe 1-2x out of every five or more groups.......the guns only shot them were I pointed em'.
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A 1/4" group to a benchrest shooter is not good at all. IN fact, if you shoot 5 five shot groups in a registered match, that were to average .250, you would place somewhere in the middle of the pack out of 200 shooters.
For benchrest shooters, they would strive to shoot groups of .250 or LESS at 200 yards, not 100 yards.
When a guy that has been a benchrest shooter quits shooting Bench rest and goes to varmint hunting, he takes with him the same equipment, knowledge of this and that, and most importantly the use of wind flags.
The use of a wind flag is the single most important tool that a guy can use to improve his group size, they are cheap and simple to use. Practically no one listens to this most practical of advice.
There are few of these us guys that dobble on this board, but they most often keep their mouths shut...too bad. We all had to learn from a mentor how to shoot with extreme accuracy....hopefully, we never quit learning.
By the way, 3 shots measure a groups potential, 5 shots measure how you read the wind and conditions along with consistant bench techniques to prove a load.
On custom guns, I am looking for three shot groups in the .100 range or LESS. You can even use two shot groups when working with powders that you just are wanting to try, and with the two shot groups, you are wanting the bullets in the same hole. With any groups you fire, you have to check them on different days to see how the weather has changed the load, thus the reason why benchrest shooters load at the range to alter their load for the conditions present.
I say again, you need a $50 wind flag, two would be better, put one out at 35 yards and the other about 75-80 yards, have them where you can see them in your scope. Wind flags will save you a ton in reloading components and give you results quicker than you would ever believe.
Be happy for the guys that get a 1/4" group out their rifles, in stock factory rifles, they are rare indeed.
It's only human nature for us to remember some of the best days of our lives in a more positive lite, especially with a favorite gun....I call it "Retrospective falseification".
I don't think that it is a good deal to destroy a guy's dreams...let him have them....no skin off my teeth.
For benchrest shooters, they would strive to shoot groups of .250 or LESS at 200 yards, not 100 yards.
When a guy that has been a benchrest shooter quits shooting Bench rest and goes to varmint hunting, he takes with him the same equipment, knowledge of this and that, and most importantly the use of wind flags.
The use of a wind flag is the single most important tool that a guy can use to improve his group size, they are cheap and simple to use. Practically no one listens to this most practical of advice.
There are few of these us guys that dobble on this board, but they most often keep their mouths shut...too bad. We all had to learn from a mentor how to shoot with extreme accuracy....hopefully, we never quit learning.
By the way, 3 shots measure a groups potential, 5 shots measure how you read the wind and conditions along with consistant bench techniques to prove a load.
On custom guns, I am looking for three shot groups in the .100 range or LESS. You can even use two shot groups when working with powders that you just are wanting to try, and with the two shot groups, you are wanting the bullets in the same hole. With any groups you fire, you have to check them on different days to see how the weather has changed the load, thus the reason why benchrest shooters load at the range to alter their load for the conditions present.
I say again, you need a $50 wind flag, two would be better, put one out at 35 yards and the other about 75-80 yards, have them where you can see them in your scope. Wind flags will save you a ton in reloading components and give you results quicker than you would ever believe.
Be happy for the guys that get a 1/4" group out their rifles, in stock factory rifles, they are rare indeed.
It's only human nature for us to remember some of the best days of our lives in a more positive lite, especially with a favorite gun....I call it "Retrospective falseification".
I don't think that it is a good deal to destroy a guy's dreams...let him have them....no skin off my teeth.
RePete
New member
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The winning agg was .486 in the Varmint for score division with targets shot at 100 and 200.
It was windy and cold, and far from ideal shooting conditions.
I'd bet there were quite a few groups that would have qualified as 1/4 moa in that agg under ideal conditions.
I'm not sure what your point is Leon?
A group can only "qualify" as a quarter inch group if it measures .250, reguarless of the condition s. It either is or it isn't,,,,, plain and simple..
If you mean that those guys are all capable of shooting .25's then,,, yes,,,,, absolutly.
I was just trying to point out that if these expencive rifles and highly skilled shooters don't shoot .25" groups on a regular basis, the probability of a "400.00 rifle and 100.00 scope" doing it all day long,,, or even once a day,,, are pretty unlikely. I'm pretty sure that was the original topic.
I probably didn't make my point very well because what I say and what I mean are often not quite the same... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Quote:
The winning agg was .486 in the Varmint for score division with targets shot at 100 and 200.
It was windy and cold, and far from ideal shooting conditions.
I'd bet there were quite a few groups that would have qualified as 1/4 moa in that agg under ideal conditions.
I'm not sure what your point is Leon?
A group can only "qualify" as a quarter inch group if it measures .250, reguarless of the condition s. It either is or it isn't,,,,, plain and simple..
If you mean that those guys are all capable of shooting .25's then,,, yes,,,,, absolutly.
I was just trying to point out that if these expencive rifles and highly skilled shooters don't shoot .25" groups on a regular basis, the probability of a "400.00 rifle and 100.00 scope" doing it all day long,,, or even once a day,,, are pretty unlikely. I'm pretty sure that was the original topic.
I probably didn't make my point very well because what I say and what I mean are often not quite the same... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
NM Leon
New member
Quote:
I'm not sure what your point is Leon?
RePete, a .486 group at 200yds is a .243 moa group. Aggragates of .486 (30 shots?) including 100 and 200yds almost certainly included some 1/4moa groups. Given agg stats like that, if there had NOT been a 25mph wind, the same equipment and shooters would have certainly turned in "quite a few" 1/4moa groups. I'd bet money on it.
As ackleyman pointed out, 1/4 moa won't even put you in the running among serious shooters and equipment. It may be a big deal for an out-of-the-box rifle, but in the greater scheme of things, it's not a big deal at all.
I'm not sure what your point is Leon?
RePete, a .486 group at 200yds is a .243 moa group. Aggragates of .486 (30 shots?) including 100 and 200yds almost certainly included some 1/4moa groups. Given agg stats like that, if there had NOT been a 25mph wind, the same equipment and shooters would have certainly turned in "quite a few" 1/4moa groups. I'd bet money on it.
As ackleyman pointed out, 1/4 moa won't even put you in the running among serious shooters and equipment. It may be a big deal for an out-of-the-box rifle, but in the greater scheme of things, it's not a big deal at all.
Here is a group i shot with my rem 700 varmint. 5 Shots at 100 yards. This is a pretty common group for this rifle load combo. Rubenator has seen me shoot this rifle and this is not a fluke!! I will not go as far to say all day long. A lot of times a shooter just doesnt shoot well. Today i did. this rifle shoots so well i usually dont take it out. Its kinda boring, No its not boring!! I love this rifle!!! Just wanted to share. Lee
RePete
New member
Lee,,, Not trying to pick on you (I know how sensative you are) but I see alot of targets that were cut from the rest of the page (culled) and posted on the net. I even have a few hanging in my reloading room.
I'd be interested in seeing the rest of the groups.
I know you didn't say you could do it all day long, but show us the rest of the page.
If I know you,,, that rifle isn't "out of the box" either...
That's what the original post was about,,, right??
I'd be interested in seeing the rest of the groups.
I know you didn't say you could do it all day long, but show us the rest of the page.
If I know you,,, that rifle isn't "out of the box" either...
That's what the original post was about,,, right??
I only had 5 rounds with me as i was working on a load for the new custom. I shot these five tonight because i added .2 more grains to the load. It made no difference. I copied a official PM target tonight and i will try to shoot it this weekend. This rifle is a factory untouched rem 700 vs 243. I went shooting with rubenator a couple weeks ago and he can vouch on how well this rifle shoots. I was shooting 3" groups with it at 500 yards. This rifle just plain shoots!! I feel really lucky. My other stock rem 700 do not shoot this good. But this one really does. Rubenator was giving me a hard time because this rifle out shot my 243AI custom. I dont know why it shoots so well, but it does. I got witnesses!! Lee
I.O.N.Doyle
New member
All of my rifles can shoot 10-dimed sized groups a day. Just so I don't forget the 10 dimes I have gone to using a silver dollar.
knockemdown
New member
A slightly different look at 10 dimes, zeroing in the .243 @ 500yds with a new load. Dialed over on the first shot...
Linefinder
New member
The difference between a true BR rig and an accurate out of the box rifle is still night and day. I own a few really accurate out of the box (almost) pdog rigs, and under ideal conditions, I expect 3/8" groups out of them. I also shoot a 30BR in BR competition. Under ideal conditions, if it won't put 5 into the mid-.1's at 100 yards, I may as well not have even wasted the bullets. I will not be in contention.
Though our matches are normally "one-shot" competition, we usually end the day with an informal five shot group match. Last week, five of us shot this informal match, and I came in dead last with a group of .77". My third shot opened the group up from .32". The winning group measured .42". Doesn't seem that hot, but we were shooting in a 32 mph wind with inconsistent gusts to 47 mph per the Kestrel wind station. Had the wind not been blowing, I guarantee every shooter firing that match would have obtained a group of sub-.25", and the winning group would have measured in the ones, or less.
I believe most shooters firing stock rifles are much better shots than they give themselves credit for. Prior to buying the BR rig, I realistically considered myself a consistent .6" shooter. And that's not bad shooting with a rifle designed for any sane practical use. But when you get behind a very specialized "sport specific" rig, a quarter inch group is about what you'd consider average for load testing, and unless the group's shaped really nice, not worth much more effort.
But, to the original intent of this thread, if you're shooting a dead stock (or slightly tweaked) rig, if you're getting reliable .6" or less 5 shot groups at 100 yards, you're doing very well.
Mike
Though our matches are normally "one-shot" competition, we usually end the day with an informal five shot group match. Last week, five of us shot this informal match, and I came in dead last with a group of .77". My third shot opened the group up from .32". The winning group measured .42". Doesn't seem that hot, but we were shooting in a 32 mph wind with inconsistent gusts to 47 mph per the Kestrel wind station. Had the wind not been blowing, I guarantee every shooter firing that match would have obtained a group of sub-.25", and the winning group would have measured in the ones, or less.
I believe most shooters firing stock rifles are much better shots than they give themselves credit for. Prior to buying the BR rig, I realistically considered myself a consistent .6" shooter. And that's not bad shooting with a rifle designed for any sane practical use. But when you get behind a very specialized "sport specific" rig, a quarter inch group is about what you'd consider average for load testing, and unless the group's shaped really nice, not worth much more effort.
But, to the original intent of this thread, if you're shooting a dead stock (or slightly tweaked) rig, if you're getting reliable .6" or less 5 shot groups at 100 yards, you're doing very well.
Mike
dan newberry
New member
these threads get started about once every 3 months (check the archives).
There may be one or two actual examples of a novice claiming 1/4" groups "all day long"...
...but there are not enough instances of such claims for us to get bent out of shape about. I hereby invite you all to find the alleged claims on this board or other such boards, and post links. If you find more than a couple you've found more than I expect you will. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I think what draws us to participation in such threads is that we don't like to think that someone out there has a more accurate rifle than we have, or is perhaps a better trigger man than we are... so we pile in and add to the fracas.
But what is the truth? Are there rifles out there capable of 1/4" groups "all day long..." ?
Yes, there are. Denying that such rifles exist might make us feel better about what's in our own gun cabinets, but that won't change the fact.
Of course such rifles have to be fed perfect ammunition, and be operated perfectly... but such rifles do exist. Such riflemen are much rarer, but when we input the phrase "when I do my part," it's a valid qualifier. I don't use that phrase myself, but it's of course fair to point out. The shooter does have a part to do, and if he doesn't do it, the rifle won't group--no matter how accurate the rifle actually is.
Dan
There may be one or two actual examples of a novice claiming 1/4" groups "all day long"...
...but there are not enough instances of such claims for us to get bent out of shape about. I hereby invite you all to find the alleged claims on this board or other such boards, and post links. If you find more than a couple you've found more than I expect you will. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I think what draws us to participation in such threads is that we don't like to think that someone out there has a more accurate rifle than we have, or is perhaps a better trigger man than we are... so we pile in and add to the fracas.
But what is the truth? Are there rifles out there capable of 1/4" groups "all day long..." ?
Yes, there are. Denying that such rifles exist might make us feel better about what's in our own gun cabinets, but that won't change the fact.
Of course such rifles have to be fed perfect ammunition, and be operated perfectly... but such rifles do exist. Such riflemen are much rarer, but when we input the phrase "when I do my part," it's a valid qualifier. I don't use that phrase myself, but it's of course fair to point out. The shooter does have a part to do, and if he doesn't do it, the rifle won't group--no matter how accurate the rifle actually is.
Dan
natesatt
Member
This is an interesting read...I like everyone else like a good "fish story". Telling fish stories is part of what makes the overall outdoor experience so great to me.
Now, I'm not saying you're all fishy, I'm just saying this is fun. I truly believe that some of you are great shooters and attain 1/4" groups. If I do...I'm told by my shooting buddy to go buy a lottery ticket!
Now honestly I don't get the hipe about super tight groups. For 90% of all shooting situations a gun that shoots around an inch should be more than enough. Some of you that are always shooting in tight wooded areas (rarely have a long shot (i.e. 200y plus)) don't really even need something that accurate.
I remember reading and article (Chuck Hawks I think, but not sure) about hunting accurate. Essentially it was saying what is accurate enough for hunting and that all the extra $$$ and effort to get super tight groups isn't necessary.
Now on the other hand if you have the extra $$$ just sitting around to push the accuracy envelope with each of your guns, GO FOR IT!!! I wish I had the $$$ to do it...and I do take donations if you're running out of rifles to put your money into.
Just my way of thinking!
Now, I'm not saying you're all fishy, I'm just saying this is fun. I truly believe that some of you are great shooters and attain 1/4" groups. If I do...I'm told by my shooting buddy to go buy a lottery ticket!
Now honestly I don't get the hipe about super tight groups. For 90% of all shooting situations a gun that shoots around an inch should be more than enough. Some of you that are always shooting in tight wooded areas (rarely have a long shot (i.e. 200y plus)) don't really even need something that accurate.
I remember reading and article (Chuck Hawks I think, but not sure) about hunting accurate. Essentially it was saying what is accurate enough for hunting and that all the extra $$$ and effort to get super tight groups isn't necessary.
Now on the other hand if you have the extra $$$ just sitting around to push the accuracy envelope with each of your guns, GO FOR IT!!! I wish I had the $$$ to do it...and I do take donations if you're running out of rifles to put your money into.
Just my way of thinking!