17hmr Penetration Testing

Originally Posted By: ShovelheadaveNo, what you see in the pic is the exit, I shot her just behind her left front shoulder, she was quatering to me.


Considering the shot angle and what you hit, 30 feet is amazing. Sounds like it may have taken the tip of the front side lung and the liver with it. That is actually good performance given the impact and angle. I once made the exact same hit on a much smaller grey fox and found it in the mouth of the den 75yds from the shot location with no blood trail. I was using a 223 with 30gr. HP's and shot farther back than I wanted. I'd say it worked out good for you.
 
We're not talking about bow hunting... Nor deer hunting...

And here's a free lesson in anatomy: If a fox (or coyote) is quartering towards you, why'd you shoot it BEHIND the shoulder? You should have placed the shot in FRONT of the shoulder (what most people think is the shoulder) or straight through the front leg. Isn't that why people choose the solid non-fragmenting 20gr bullets so bone penetration isn't an issue? That way the bullet would pass directly through the vitals instead of clipping the near side lung/liver and exiting the intestines. The heart it located low pretty much right between the front legs, and you intentionally missed it. Why?
 
Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOG The heart it located low pretty much right between the front legs, and you intentionally missed it.

Now hold on , I like an internet pizzing contest as much as the next guy; but this is a great and informational thread without making accusations (like the guy who said you haven't shot much) or that the guy in this case doesn't know anatomy and misses vitals on purpose.

We weren't there and are unaware how much of an angle it was when quartered. It's something we've all done at some point when we thought we could sneak a pill right in close behind the shoulder blade and ended up a little further back then intended.

It happens and it'll buff out. 'Sides, it proved to be an academic detail to the fox.
 
I can't comment on what someone who was not there thinks should have been done. I also have no interest in internet pizzing contests...not my intention to start one. Just enjoying reading about 17HMRs.

IMO - again, it's just my $.02 for whatever you feel that's worth. Let's not forget that 30 feet is 10 yards, that's a few steps for stung fox. I took the shot I had and recovered the animal in short order. I stand by my decision and have a fox hanging to back it up.
 
I'll agree that if it was a "known" quartering shot and that was the point of aim, then there were better spots to shoot as you mention DiRTY DOG. But, this is hunting. There is wind, rain, snow, moving targets, off hand shooting, brush deflection, darkness, adrenaline, and awkward shooting conditions to deal with on a routine basis in the field. Not all shots are as perfect as we like. A slight error in windage to the tune of 2" turns a shoulder shot into a gut shot when quartered to you or a miss or grazing shot in the other direction. It is good to see a multitude of examples of how the various bullets perform from different situations.

The key to learning from this is that Shovelheadave recovered his animal and has hands on evidence of the XTP performance or lack therof. The ones we learn little from are the stories of animals running off never to be found with "known good shots" from people shooting in hunting conditions. This evidence puts me a little more at peace with my decision to use the Gamepoints. In the event that I should miss a bone that I aim for, the bullet appears to be capable of soft tissue damage still as well as penetrate. I'd like to see more hands on examples of animals taken with various bullets and the 17HMR. I may have to try and open up a few animals this year that I shoot with the HMR and get a better view of the bullets capabilites on meat and bone.
 
Originally Posted By: ARCOREYI may have to try and open up a few animals this year that I shoot with the HMR and get a better view of the bullets capabilites on meat and bone.

Would be interested in seeing what you find. This is a great thread, great info.
 
Originally Posted By: ShovelheadaveOriginally Posted By: ARCOREYI may have to try and open up a few animals this year that I shoot with the HMR and get a better view of the bullets capabilites on meat and bone.

Would be interested in seeing what you find. This is a great thread, great info.

I agree! Seems to be some real world diffrences going on with the various bullets and how dead, how soon.

It appears that the 20 gr. anyhow has some bone penetration capabilities, with expansion afterwards.
 
I'll give a few examples of experiences I've had with a few different .17HMR bullets to contribute to this thread a little bit.
I've seen a jackrabbit run about 15 yards after taking a hit through the neck with a V-Max.It's juglar vein was damaged pretty severely and it was leakin quite a bit but it still ran.That's not something you would expect to happen but that's a good example of how a fox could run 10 yards even after taking a solid hit.Every once in a while you'll find one of those critters that's a little tougher than normal even if you put a good shot on it that would normally drop something in it's tracks.

One other time a buddy of mine shot a feral cat in the shoulder with a V-Max and didn't have very good results.Another shot was needed because all it did was break its shoulder and put a pretty good sized hole in it.I learned a lesson from this....don't shoot stuff in the shoulder.I like the V-Max bullets but I try for head or neck shots most of the time.Anything hit from the nose up will drop where it's standing.

In Oklahoma it's legal to use a .17HMR for turkey in the Fall so I decided to shoot one with my .17HMR a few years ago.When I finally got a shot at one I found out pretty quick that shooting a turkey in the head with a rifle is harder than it sounds because they move around alot.So I chose to shoot it in front of the right wing and then the V-Max did it's job.When I was cleanin the turkey I noticed the top part of the right lung was demolished.I also found bullet fragments close to the heart.I don't know how far that would mean the bullet penetrated but I can tell you that it did alot of damage.

And since we're talking about how different bullets perform I'll mention the time that I got a pretty good idea of how fast the CCI TNT's expand.A few years back I shot 3 starlings setting on a fence post with one shot.The starling first in line had a .17 caliber hole in front and a slightly bigger hole in its back.The second one in line got blown in half.The starling standing behind the first two basically disintigrated.The only thing left to find was its head.That's kind of a penetration test aint it?
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I'm gonna give an example of how good the FMJ's perform too.Not long after CCI came out with these bullets I decided to pick up a box of them to try them out.To make a short story even shorter the first thing I shot with them was a sparrow.After I shot it,it just flew into a tree like nothing happened.It dropped out of the tree stone dead about 30 seconds later.There was a small hole under its right wing and a hole almost identical on the opposite side.The bullet zipped right through and didn't do very much damage at all.I also shot a few jackrabbits and prairie dogs with them to see if maybe they worked better on bigger critters.And they didn't so I learned from that experience too.I learned that FMJ's are only good for one thing......target practice.
 
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Originally Posted By: OKRattlerI'll give a few examples of experiences I've had with a few different .17HMR bullets to contribute to this thread a little bit.
I've seen a jackrabbit run about 15 yards after taking a hit through the neck with a V-Max.It's juglar vein was damaged pretty severely and it was leakin quite a bit but it still ran.That's not something you would expect to happen but that's a good example of how a fox could run 10 yards even after taking a solid hit.Every once in a while you'll find one of those critters that's a little tougher than normal even if you put a good shot on it that would normally drop something in it's tracks.

One other time a buddy of mine shot a feral cat in the shoulder with a V-Max and didn't have very good results.Another shot was needed because all it did was break its shoulder and put a pretty good sized hole in it.I learned a lesson from this....don't shoot stuff in the shoulder.I like the V-Max bullets but I try for head or neck shots most of the time.Anything hit from the nose up will drop where it's standing.

In Oklahoma it's legal to use a .17HMR for turkey in the Fall so I decided to shoot one with my .17HMR a few years ago.When I finally got a shot at one I found out pretty quick that shooting a turkey in the head with a rifle is harder than it sounds because they move around alot.So I chose to shoot it in front of the right wing and then the V-Max did it's job.When I was cleanin the turkey I noticed the top part of the right lung was demolished.I also found bullet fragments close to the heart.I don't know how far that would mean the bullet penetrated but I can tell you that it did alot of damage.

And since we're talking about how different bullets perform I'll mention the time that I got a pretty good idea of how fast the CCI TNT's expand.A few years back I shot 3 starlings setting on a fence post with one shot.The starling first in line had a .17 caliber hole in front and a slightly bigger hole in its back.The second one in line got blown in half.The starling standing behind the first two basically disintigrated.The only thing left to find was its head.That's kind of a penetration test aint it?
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Now that's some real world results! I bet most of us wish animals would line up nice for us like that and hold still once in a while for a good test like that!
 
Keep the results coming!

The story of another shooter experiencing the 20gr over penetrating with a resulting runoff only adds to my two examples of the same thing. A pattern, or coincidence?

Shot placement aside... Based on my 17Vmax fox kills, I'll bet shovelheadave's fox would have died faster (probably dropped in it's tracks) with no exit had he used the 17gr Vmax instead of the 20gr, same distance same angle same point of entry.
 
Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOGThe story of another shooter experiencing the 20gr over penetrating with a resulting runoff only adds to my two examples of the same thing. A pattern, or coincidence?

You don't have examples, only anecdotes. Shovelheadave recovered his fox. It wasn't a runoff.

Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOGThe first shot was solid, from shooting sticks. The second shot was quartering away slightly but I got him.

No. You didn't get him. Or the other one for that matter.



Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOG
In my opinion, the Vmax works much better, something about the hydrostatic shock or whatever you want to call it when the frangible bullet explodesand dumps it's energy, vs the pin prick thru and thru of the XTP.

Does that exit wound on Shovelheadave's fox look like a pin prick?
What about the sausage test? Did you not see the hydrostatic effect throughout the entire bullet track?

From Hornady: Quote:Expansion is beneficial, but penetration is essential in order to ensure that the bullet reaches the animal’s vitals
http://www.hornady.com/

I would argue that the red fox example mirrors my personal experience and anecdotes. It also mirrors my above test results.:

Originally Posted By: CrazyHorse66I have found that the XTPs provide adequate penetration to reach vitals from most all angles (reasonable of course) and I've never had to apply a second shot to dispatch them.

Fox2.jpg

xtp2.jpg


I have also produced test results mirroring my real world anecdotal results with a VMax:

Originally Posted By: CrazyHorse66I've also had them splash on ribs and leg bones, leaving a nasty wound that wasn't terminal.

vmax3.jpg



Your anecdotal evidence with a VMax mirrors mine:

Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOG The larger 20 pound coons often require a second shot to anchor them with a body shot.


I would say that Shovelheadave made a good shot using the right bullet.
You're arguing that he made a bad shot with the wrong bullet.
You've criticized his shot placement, yet he has an animal to show for it.

What color is the sky in your world?

You do know that the XTP was designed specifically for larger animals, don't you?

Until you can post definitive proof of the XTP "pencil in, pencil out" theory, I call BS.
It obviously creates enough hydrostatic shock to do it's job on reasonable sized animals at reasonable distances.



 
while i hate to agree with dirty dog for a few reasons. i have shot a couple of fox with the 20s the first of which ran off with no blood trail the second ran about 50 yds before expiring. they came on the same stand and were within 30yds of each other and both were broadside. i can't say how well i placed the shot on the first animal; but i thought it was good. the second i confirmed that i hit right were i was aiming and there was a complete pass through with a very small exit hole.

the same day i also shot a coyote at about 75yds but aimed for the neck because i was shooting the HMR. it went down instantly but that just means that i hit where i was aiming and says little about the bullet's performance.

i don't shoot the HMR very often but i think i'll use different ammo for fox.

The test did a great job of showing how the bullets perform on "meat" and i'm glad that it was posted. but that kind of test doesn't mirror (nor did he claim it to) the chest cavity of a fox which has very little meat. if you don't hit a rib on the exit or entrance i can see where the 20s may just punch holes.
 
Interesting. Two more examples of foxes running after being shot. That makes 5 for 5 foxes that have run after being hit with the 20gr XTP. Starting to look like a pattern to me.

A ground sausage test is supposed to mimic what? Live animals are not made out if loosely ground fatty meat surrounded by a plastic shell.

I've shared my real experience with the HMR with photos. My experience shows the 20gr bullets are much less effective than the 20gr XTP on foxes. Anybody else have experience they want to add?
 

I'm sure we all agree that two people shooting the same load at the same type of animal can get different results. Again, I'm not trying to start, or perpetuate, a pizzing match.

Please don't take any of my posts the wrong way. I'm a big fan of VMax, they devastate PDs out of my .223 and I started with 17gr VMax (Federal Premium) when I first got my 17. I used it on three groundhogs (50-70 yards). Two were high center-mass (standing targets) and one was a head shot. None of the three seemed to be the lightning quick kill I was expecting, that’s why I looked at the XTPs for fox.

This is just my experience, I’m not saying that it should, or will, be anyone else’s experience.
 
We don't have ground hogs here, but my understanding is they can be pretty good sized and built tuff for their size, and therefore probably not what the 17HMR was intended for. Foxes are pretty frail.
 
Originally Posted By: CrazyHorse66If someone is having success with a system, I say more power to em.

Let's start with that.

The sausage test not only shows penetration, but hydrostatic shock. A reasonable person can agree that it not only shows the penetration differences between the two rounds, but it also clearly shows the differences between how the hydrostatic shock is spread along the bullet path. What does a wet phone book mimic? A boneless chicken?

Remember, this thread was originally about penetration. I didn't chime in until bobcats were mentioned. If you want to make it about foxes, I'll back out now. In the meantime, I'll strongly urge people not to use the VMax on larger animals.

People tend to have problems with the HMR and larger animals. I have always contended the problem lies with bullet selection and shot placement.

I have never once said that the VMax wasn't fine for fox, phonebooks, and boneless chickens.
But I refuse to believe that an XTP isn't superior for reaching vitals from all angles.

And please, if you want any credibility, don't tell me how a bullet performed on an unrecovered animal. That's just internet BS.
I base my opinions on recovered animals.



 
Quote:There is a lifetime's worth of reading about the 17HMR on the internet. But actual expansion/penetration testing of the 17HMR is scarce.. That's the first two lines from the first post in this thread, which I started.

1. Expansion and
2. Penetration

Even your pre-ground sausage in a plastic bottle "test" showed minimal "expansion" and that was likely caused by hitting the hard backstop not flesh.

I'll keep to my theory that the 20gr XTP pretty much sails straight thru without much if any expansion and overpenetrates, which theory is backed by more evidence than you have to show the contrary.
 
We can try and keep score and wizz back and forth all day. Heck I killed two reds with 20gr. Gamepoints this year and bang flopped them, is that 2 more points in the 20gr. column? I also killed 9 skunks, 3 possums, 1 groundhog, and 2 coons with the same setup while trapping. Did they run? Not while in a trap. Could they have if not in a trap? Not with a hole between their eyes. And for all the naysayers, no I don't walk up to an animal in the trap and shoot them. I usually get back 30-40 yds and take them off my shooting sticks with a kill light. I don't like stressing the animals while caught and like shooting them more relaxed in the pre-dawn hours when they are fresh caught. Possums are the only ones that I'll walk up too as they are pretty doscile. One of the coons was a free ranging coon I lipsqeaked out of cover and took at 40yds with one shot between the eyes.

I've been using them on groundhogs for several years now with great success. I can't tell you how many I've killed with them and some as far as 200yds. I've also lost some with body shots to the guts or glancing blows that didn't get any vitals, same for the v-max as well as loosing some with solid chest hits to the v-max at very reasonable ranges. Shoot any fox between the eyes with just about any rimfire and you'll get the same results every time. All my kills last year with the exception of one were headshots. It doesn't mean a thing in relation to what makes a good hunting bullet and performance on a body shot under "hunting" circumstances.

I've lost game to both styles of bullets on a variety of shot angles and distances. Is one better than the other? That is subjective. My style of hunting and shooting usually has the biggest bones in the animals body towards me. I usually have a head on shot or quartered to angle due to calling or using a light and find I can hit a shoulder or skull easier than I can miss them. They give you 2 nice glowing objects to aim for and I try to take advantage of that. For that reason I choose Gamepoints and have upped my retreival rates on groundhogs, which seem to be my most abundant test subjects. I haven't fox hunted with my HMR much in the past due to carrying a centerfire for coyotes in the area, but plan to do more after seeing the lack of damage to pelts last year on the nuisance animals mentioned above. I have limited myself to a range of less than 75yds for fox and have no concern using the bullets I've chosen for head and shoulder shots at that distance or closer. If I take behind the shoulder shots, I am fully expecting a run off as that is what I've seen happen with groundhogs. If I shoot a grey fox with a V-max, I fully expect to cut the tail off and trash the rest as that is the damage I see from past wounds on varmints as well. I use my HMR on my trap line and will continue to shoot Gamepoints for their ability to not blow out or pass through the opposite side and to make efficient kills at the same time with controlled expansion like a big game bullet. My taxidermist, a die hard v-max shooter, was amazed at the recovered bullets and lack of damage to the pelts yet still have massive internal trauma.

Moral of the story, shoot what you want, take responsibility for bad shots, don't blame the bullets if you use them wrong, know the intended purpose of the bullet you shoot, and try not to go outside of your capabilities or that of your equipment.
 
Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOGQuote:There is a lifetime's worth of reading about the 17HMR on the internet. But actual expansion/penetration testing of the 17HMR is scarce.. That's the first two lines from the first post in this thread, which I started.

1. Expansion and
2. Penetration

Even your pre-ground sausage in a plastic bottle "test" showed minimal "expansion" and that was likely caused by hitting the hard backstop not flesh.

I'll keep to my theory that the 20gr XTP pretty much sails straight thru without much if any expansion and overpenetrates, which theory is backed by more evidence than you have to show the contrary.

Suit yourself.
I did find this idiot on the internet who claims they do expand : Just another internet idiot.
 


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