20 Tactical

Think "Practical 20", not "Tactical 20"---makes alot more sense. This round is simply a .223 necked down to 20 caliber. The Kindler Tac load is a pain unless Laupa ever comes through with the brass and still you will have to pay Dakota prices for it. Laupa does make .223 brass now. Why not just go with the Ruger .204? There is not enough of a difference to worry about between the three rounds.
 
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Think "Practical 20", not "Tactical 20"---makes alot more sense. This round is simply a .223 necked down to 20 caliber. The Kindler Tac load is a pain unless Laupa ever comes through with the brass and still you will have to pay Dakota prices for it. Laupa does make .223 brass now. Why not just go with the Ruger .204? There is not enough of a difference to worry about between the three rounds.



Contrary to public opinion, forming brass for the Tac 20 is extremely easy, and fire forming brass will most always shoot to the exact same point of impact as comlete fire formed Tac 20 brass so that you're not wasting barrel life as some folks claim. Nothing I've shot a Tac 20 at knew whether it was older fire formed or new die formed Tac 20 brass used.

For the record....the "new" Practical 20 is nothing but the much older 5MM-223 that some folks have been shooting for years....and the 204 Ruger has been known for years as the 20 Terminator in almost the exact same cartridge design off the 222 Rem Mag case....neither of those two cartridges offers something that wasn't first tried years ago.

The Tac 20 is a little different and is very efficient, and it is not hard to make cases from good quality 223 Rem brass, in spite of the pundits who say otherwise, but who have never actually tried it.

I have two Tac 20's and two 204 Rugers and the Tac 20 is my favorite hands down....in spite of the "terribly laborious" case forming operations...LOL

JMO -BCB
 
What I failed to say in my first post was, I have a 204 Ruger in a Cooper. It is a fantastic rifle. I look at my rifles (14 varmint rifles) much the same way I look at my kids, I don't have a favorite, one doesn't have to be better than the others, I love them all. Each one of them is different and lovable in their own way. The only difference is that the rifles are a whole lot cheaper than those dam kids were. Sure am glad they have all moved out (couldn't have afforded the rifles had they not).
 
BCB,
I am not sure of the difference between a Tac 20 and a Prac 20. Both can be made from quality .223 brass and both shoot 20 cal bullets. I suppose the Tac 20 has some extra step done to the shoulder in loading after fire forming. Not sure I understand what such a small step could make such a dramatic advantge. Don't get me wrong---I think it is a great cartridge and if I had 14 varmint rifles like the poster and did not have a Tac 20, that would be a must have. I wish I understood better why it is a better round than the .204 or Practical. I just bought a .17 Rem and a 20 caliber is my next rifle. I was thinking Tac 20 myself before things seem to have fallen apart with Kindler, Dakota, and Laupua. I like the idea of high quality brass ready to go. Do you have any experience with 20 BR or 20 PPC? Heard the 20BR is the Wrath of Things to Come!
 
dimecovers3:

I don't believe I said there was a "dramatic advantage" of one over the other...those are your words.

And no...there is not "some extra step done to the shoulder in loading after fire forming". The shoulder is slightly pushed back on the 223 Rem case and formed to a 30 degree shoulder to make a Tac 20 case, and many folks use a FL sizer die to do this and also neck the case down in one step. I use a separate form die to do the same thing.

I merely responded to the recent theme about the Tac 20 requiring a lot of "extra effort" that's being tossed out by people who don't really know the facts. It really doesn't require any more than a little effort to make good Tac 20 brass. Like Remington shooter stated, if you can resize a case, you can probably make Tac 20 brass. To me, saying that about the Tac 20 is kin to folks saying that "all 17 Remingtons foul badly" even though the folks saying it have often never owned or maybe never even shot a 17 Remington.

In addition, I have yet to see a Tac 20 that wouldn't shoot to the same or very nearly the same point of impact with both fire formed brass and new pre-fire formed brass, so the idea of wasting barrel life with fire forming is pretty much a myth with the Tac 20 from my perspective. Every round I've ever shot in one of my Tac 20's was shot at something worth shooting at, and not just to fire form brass so I could later shoot at something worthwhile.

Maybe re-read my post above and also Remington Shooters post for more clarification on what I was saying.

Beyond that, I did state I liked the Tac 20 over the 204 Ruger, but I don't think I tried to make one a Cadillac and the other a Chevy....if they are in your mind, that's fine with me....but that's not my impression. I own two of each...

I do like the Tac 20 because it is a little more efficient case than the others with a longer case neck, but I mainly just like something that not everyone else has. If I could only own one of them, it would be the Tac 20.

Also, I don't think the cloudy skies between Kindler, Lapau, and Dakota is going to cause the Tac 20 to become extinct any time soon. I know I would not have spent almost a dollar each for brass from Dakota that is so easily formed. In addition, dies are available in several places, including Midway and Sinclair (Redding) and Kindler, for about the same cost as any other non-factory round. And like you stated...it just shoots 20 caliber bullets.

What the "Wrath of Things to Come" means is beyond me...??? LOL!! But, if you think Tac 20 brass is hard to make, you definitely won't like the 20 BR or the 20 PPC....especially "if you like the idea of high quality brass ready to go."

Another great 20 caliber option is the 20 Vartarg....IMHO, but there's no "high quality brass ready to go". But the end results are well worth the small effort required in making the brass for it, too.

-BCB
 
bcb-

what is involved in the fireforming? can you go into that at all? If you full length size the cases, why would you need to fireform? Im trying to learn about reloading, so please forgive me if this question has an obvious answer. was thinking about tac 20 in the future.
 
CLAIMBUSTER,
GO FOR IT. Regardless of what DIMECOVERS3 said, whether you choose the Tactical 20 or the Practical 20, you still have to go through EXACTLY the same operations at the reloading bench!!! If you don't want to, or know how to reload, then the 204 Ruger is your only option. If you do reload, get some Lapua 223 brass from Sinclair (best price around) and full length resize it by making sure you raise the ram and seat the die on the shellholder so the ram has a slight "bump" feel to it when it is raised. This is ALL that is needed other than firing your reload in yoyr rifle (which is the whole idea of putting a cartridge into a rifle in the first place). I agree with BCB that this whole exercise is being blown out of proportion. As for the 30deg shoulder...it was proven on the PPC to be the best shoulder for accuracy. I have a Cooper in Tactical 20 that I use regularly at our local monthly metallic prairie dog silhouette matches that (if I do my part) will run all 5 targets (9" x 5") at 500 meters (547 yds) using 39gr Sierra Blitzkings or 40gr Hornady V-Max bullets over 24 grains of Alliant Reloder 10X in Lapua cases with Winchester WSR primers (my match load). The proper class for this rifle is Light Varmint (cartridges based on 223 cases, 222 Mag, 22BR and 6BR) with a maximum target distance of 385 meters, but I shoot it against the Heavy Varmint class rifles (22-250, 243, 6MM, 6.5MM cartridges)...because I can and it will. Yes, I intentionally handicap myself by doing this but it's more fun this way and I enjoy the challenge.
BTW BCB, just spoke with Cooper Friday 3/24/06 to check on the the rebarreling of my Cooper 221 Fireball to 20 VarTarg. All work was already completed and they were going to test fire it that afternoon. I shipped it from Tucson 2/2/06, so this is an excellent turn around even though Rob Behr told me they were really backlogged after the holidays. The cost...$325 for a factory conversion of my choice with guaranteed accuracy of 1/2" at 100 yds. If I was smart I'd sell all of the other "hardware" that I own and get only Coopers...but a guy needs a 3 or 4 shot magazine sometimes.
 
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bcb-

what is involved in the fireforming? can you go into that at all? If you full length size the cases, why would you need to fireform? Im trying to learn about reloading, so please forgive me if this question has an obvious answer. was thinking about tac 20 in the future.



Fire forming a Tac 20 involves a slight "improving" or straightening of the case wall and it fully forms the cartridge for your particular chamber. The overall change to the fire formed cartridge is so minimal that, like I explained above, a fire form load will typically shoot the same as a fully formed Tac 20 case load in terms of point of aim.

As a result, I feel the whole "you have to fire form cases which wastes barrel life" is not even an issue with the Tac 20. Find a good load, use it in both cases, and it will shoot to the same point of aim, whether you're shooting at paper target or live game.

At least it works that way for me. Maybe someone else sees it totally differently, and I've been doing something wrong all these years....

Sorry if I sound kinda' in a rant mode. I just see no good reason to take a simple process and try to complicate it to push an agenda, especialy when you've never had any experience with the simple process to start with. Tac 20 cases are extremely easy to make and the "fire forming process" is what you made 'em for in the first place, just like any other cartride you load for. It's not complicated, time consuming, a waste of barrel life, or any of those things.

I hope the information helps those who are really interested in the Tac 20. And I have absolutely no problem with someone else wanting a.....whatever. Just don't load up the wagon with misinformation to justify getting it, however. - BCB
 
I have a Cooper tac 20. Had it for four years. serial # 169. Great rifle. Also a xr100 rem in 204. I don't like the short neck in 204, and they all seem to be so long throated. Even in the rem single shot I can't get the 40 gr bullets out to touch the lands and still have enough bullet in the case. If you have a magazine, they are a mile away. I have a Savage 16fss that was 204. I got it rebarreled to tac 20. With the longer neck,and the perfect throating, 40 gr bullets almost touching the lands are even with the bottom of the neck. 32 gr still have plenty bullet in the case when touching. Lots of room in the magazine. The shoulder of the tac 20 is the same as the 223, but has a 30 degree instead of 20. So it makes the neck longer. In my opinion they screwed up in designing the 204. Should have left the shoulder the same place, just made it 30 degree. Not throated so deep, and ten twist. If you plan on shooting 40 gr bullets, you should get a ten twist. I have had a Rem sps, CZ, and the Savage, None of them would stabilize the 40 gr or 39. My Rem 100 and Cooper will with 39. Haven't tried the 40s.
The tac shoots about the same speed with one to 1 1/2 grain less powder.
 
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so the FLS die just gets the casing "close" and the first firing gets it right? Does this apply to virgin brass or is this part of the process for every reload?



Your analogy is pretty close. With new brass that's been die-formed to Tac 20 (necked down and the case shoulder pushed back slightly), firing the case in a rifle completes the almost completed forming process. Like I said, firing the case "improves" it slightly (blows out and straightens the case wall slightly) and rounds out the shoulder area to your chamber.

After initial firing, running a Tac 20 case through a sizer die is just like another cartridge. You can neck size or FL size from then on depending on your choice.

-BCB
 
I built mine so the cases wouldn't say ruger on them. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I don't know about all that other stuff. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif



/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
I have used my T.20 now for three or more years, I really like it. Going by what people post here it looks like I am shooting 1-200fps faster than the Ruger .204. I prefer the Berger 35gr over the too explosive v-max. I use IMI brass.T.20
 
I only load my .204 ruger with the 35 grain bergers to about 3900 fps.But I think Silverfox is shooting his at about 4200 fps with the 35's,and I am sure that Tact is not shooting them faster than that.
 
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Utah, I could load it to shoot 4200 for the 35 Berger but I was trying to shoot a little under the very max. I shot the 33gr v-maxs at 4350-75fps. Had one cronied at 4420, but was not intending that to happen. I was going by the 33gr v-max on the subject of 1-200 ft faster, and Silverfoxe's info was one of the ones I was comparing it to. T.20
 


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