200 yard group size, what do you consider good?

DiRTY DOG

DiRTY DOG

Well-known member
What do you consider acceptable 200 yard groups in a factory varmint rifle vs an aftermarket barrel? 3-shot, 5-shots, whatever. In a decently accurate rifle like a Savage 12 varmint, Rem700, or Tikka etc. A hobby varmint rifle, not necessarily a full blown custom. Looking for general numbers, so throw some out there.

Also consider hand loaded varmint type hunting bullets, not custom match grade target bullets.

For example if a decent shooter buys a target model Savage 12 223 or 22-250 w/24x Leupold scope and then handloads Vmax or NBT, what can he expect at 200 yards?
 
Prone on a bipod with my mittens under the butt(just like winter shots). Three inside a quarter coin will work for me, the rifle and scope must hold the zero and I prefer the clean bore shot to stay closer than 1 inch to center of the group.
 
Probably ask ten different people and you'll get ten different answers but I'd say if you are shooting a decent factory built off the shelf rifle with store bought ammo and it will hold 3/4-ish MOA size groups at yardages out to 800 yards, give or take, you probably have yourself a pretty decent piece. Even if it's only capable of shooting, consistent, 1 MOA groups out to 800 yards I wouldn't consider it a deal breaker. Some will do better but, likely, more will do worse and some even considerably worse.

A properly built semi custom rifle using a factory receiver with a good quality custom barrel and everything else done right should have no problem holding 1/2 MOA groups out to reasonable distances.
 
Last edited:
1.5" would suffice for me for a varmint rifle. I took my 22-250 Remington 700 VSSF II out to 515 yards last weekend. I started at 200 and put 3 shots less than an inch apart. Backed up from there on a 10" plate and didn't miss at 350 and hit the plate 4 out of 5 shots at 515 with a decent crosswind. That was with 55gr handloads.
 
Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOGI figure 1" 3-shot groups or 1.5" 5-shot groups would be acceptable, but hopefully a little smaller.

+1

Yeah, that be fine for me. I'd like smaller as well but wind, skittery animals, itchy trigger fingers all add up too.
 
Most of my stuff is factory off the shelf. Nothing special. If I do my part my varmint rifles will shoot under an inch at 200. I'm cool with that.
 
Under an inch at 200? That's better than most rifles can do, strictly by the numbers that is under 1/2" at 100. Bring in the real world of sight error, wind, and such and its a whole other game. While I have a few rifles that consistently do under 1/2 at 100, I have few that will do under an inch at 200. My experience has been that most groups are quite a bit larger than people want to admit.
In a factory rifle I would not expect less than MOA at 200.
 
I find that anything under 2" will make a great coyote hunting rifle(this is a predator hunting site) and I have some rifle that will do it that would never be considered a candidate.

A 50 year old Cezch. combo gun with a low power scope and .228 bullets.



A 91 year old German drilling with a low power scope and bullets .003 undesized for the bore, bullets .257 bore slugged at .260.



Old Stevens 840 with Weaver 4x scope



For my modern Coyote guns under 1 1/2' at 200With a 6x scope) for my modern varmint and target guns under and inch with high power scopes.
 
Last edited:
Originally Posted By: DiRTY DOGI figure 1" 3-shot groups or 1.5" 5-shot groups would be acceptable, but hopefully a little smaller.

This or a little better.
 
Myself, if varmint rifles won't shoot 1" or less 3 shot groups with careful handloads at 200 yards, they have to find a new home.
IMO, two of the most important things in shooting small groups is learning shooter control & a really good trigger. Without either I don't think you will be able to consistently shoot good groups.
Again IMO, if you've got a rifle with a good trigger, good shooter control, & good tried & proven hand loads with good bullets like Berger, it should stay an inch or under preferably .750 at 200 yards.
Good luck to you.

Jim D
 
Whenever varmint rifle accuracy questions come up and guys start quoting "group size" I have to wonder if their rifles did it once, occasionally or consistently. And, even more important, what's this rifle doing with the first shot cold bore??? Because to me this one, out of a hunting rifle, is more important than benchrest shooting style groups.
Some of the groups I hear about with factory rifles and ammo might be true, but I am with Texas Swifty on this whole trigger thing...there just aren't many factory rifles with decent "shootable" triggers today. All I can say is with bone stock factory rifles and store bought ammo, all you guys that demand 1/2 MOA accuracy must be going through a lot of rifles to get it, because the average one made today wont do it. And there is still no guarantee that a custom will get you there. It should, but maybe not.
For me, with a varmint rifle, the way I assess whether or not I am going to carry it afield is to forget about benchrest group sizes and test it by shooting at clay skeet targets at 100, 200, 300 and 400 yards. I use a target turret external adjustment scope {usually a Mark4 M1} and I know the come-ups. The rifle has to hit the skeet on every 1st cold bore shot using come-ups at each range prone using a bipod. If I cant do that then it needs work.
I will say one more thing...when you get a rifle that shoots the way you want it and you are comfortable hunting with it, DO NOT SELL IT OR GET RID OF IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
msinc, +1, I'm with you! It's the 1st shot that counts. You really want to know how accurate your rifle is, shoot a 3 or 5 shot group 2 hours between shots. If you end up with a decent small group, you've got a keeper. Just my 2 cents worth.

JD
 
I think if you can get 5 shots under 2" at 200yds with an off the shelf "factory" rifle, meaning no aftermarket triggers or added bedding you're doing pretty dang good!
 
Originally Posted By: MotoHunterI think if you can get 5 shots under 2" at 200yds with an off the shelf "factory" rifle, meaning no aftermarket triggers or added bedding you're doing pretty dang good!

X2 and that's why I said if you have one that'll hold 3/4 MOA you've definitely got yourself a keeper because a lot will be 1 MOA and the majority will be 1++ MOA.

I keep hearing about alllllll these off the shelf rifles that shoot 1in or smaller groups at 200 yards, do they not realize that's a 1/2 MOA or less??? For a custom or semi-custom 1/2 MOA with everything done right, ammo included, is what most of your good gunsmiths will promise but we're talking about regular off the shelf stuff and there is NO comparison between the two. Certainly not saying some off the shelf guns don't occasionally hold 1/2 MOA shooting ability but it is a longgggg way from being the norm.

One of the things I like so much about the little CZ 527 is the trigger can be easily adjusted down to a 1.5lbs and well below that if you know how.
 
Last edited:
A crusty old retired Army sergeant who claimed to have taught
snipers told a bunch of us that we under-rated our groups. His
rationale was that if our groups were just MOA, the POI was
within 1/2" of POA. He had a good point, but it sure doesn't
hurt anything to strive for 1/4 MOA!
thumbup.gif
 
I truly think that your bench technique is far more important than either scopes or triggers. For un-supported shooting, such as field positions or off shooting sticks or bipod where you don't have a solid 3 point anchor for the rifle the trigger becomes far more important. Good optics and a target grade trigger will only help you wring out the last couple of tenths off the bench.

The groups with the 840 and the BRNO were shot with low power optics, max 4.5x and long heavy triggers. Being long and heavy they were predictable and broke consistently so off the bench it was pretty easy to be on the target when they broke.

You can shoot small groups with low power optics by not using the crosshairs for the aiming point but setting the bull into one of the quadrants bisected by the crosshairs and just touching the vertical and horizontal crosshairs which gives you a much finer aiming point than burying the bull behind the crosshairs. That's why when you see groups I've shot with some of these low powered scopes the group will be in one of the quadrants around the bull.

Yes the very first shot is the most important, if my guns throw the first cold bore(not clean bore) considerably away from the rest of the group that tells me that there is a problem with the rifle that needs work.

All my combo gun groups are shot with cold bores because the barrels are connected and as one barrel heats up it will walk the group depending on the relation of the warm barrel to the cold barrel. I fire one shot and set the gun aside until the barrel is cool again before firing the second. The drilling has very thin barrels and is the worst offender but only having a single shot in the rifle it isn't a problem in the field as it always put the first one on the money. The BRNO has much heavier barrels and will put the first three in very close proximity before starting to walk.

The same 840 with a 3x scope at 100 yards, I shot the first group and to prove it wasn't a fluke fired the second group.



An old German drilling in 7x57R shooting factory PPV 139gr bullets. This is the first group fired from the gun after I built a set of claw mount rings to mount a Weaver K-1.5 (1.5x) scope close to the barrel to handle more like a DGR. 100 yards

 
Last edited:
With factory rifles 5 shot .5 moa is a phenomenal keeper. 5 shot groups with 3 at .5 moa with the other two out to .7 or so is pretty good. Anything consistently over .750" @ 100 on 5 shots I wont hunt with. I have rifles that will shoot sub moa one day and then .750 the next. Temperature, humidity, bad load, different weight brass I can't be sure what the cause is. I also think your gonna have 1.25 moa flyers every so ofter with anything factory. The way I see it if a rifle will effortlessly stack 5 in one hole one day and not the next it probably isn't always the rifles fault.
 
Last edited:
Under typical conditions, at 200, wind doping will do more to shrink your groups than anything else will. Or, just shoot in really good conditions.

- DAA
 


Write your reply...
Back
Top